Don't bother them with details.
ECT God's Grace . . . . Unmerited, you say?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
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Don't bother them with details.
Cross Reference
New member
I gave my response adnausm. You haven't seen fit to reply.
Keep in mind that the word is "grace" but if you want to use the word "favor" it surely would help in clearing up the issue.
Unmerited is to "Redemption" as in, we had nothing to do with it. . . as merited is to "Salvation" as in requiring our faith to obtain it.
Hi and I just cleared up this ISSUE but you never did respond !!
You need to gst VINE'S and Strong's to see how Greek words are used !!:chuckle::chuckle:
These are the FACTS !!
dan p
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Wrong answer, there's nothing wrong with good works, they just don't gain extra saving power or bonus points.
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genuineoriginal
New member
I am not one of the people that says that there is something wrong with good works.
You are looking at the wrong side of the equation.
The problem is not in the good works, covered by the fruit of the spirit.
The problem is in doing the wicked works, known as the works of the flesh.
Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. |
Cross Reference
New member
Problem with that thinking stems from pride: You assume a wrong motive for such works offered in righteousness.. Isn't that by another term, " wrongly judging" . . . . "unlearned judging"?
Interplanner
Well-known member
We should notice the categorical description for the effects of the flesh vs the effects of the Spirit. The issue about the flesh is "obvious." Why? Because, darkened human nature has such a hard time being honest! Paul was speaking to those entrenched in worthless Judaism and they were fighting and immoral, but no one would talk about that! No one connected the dots.
Then when we come to the fruit, we find a different descriptor. 'About these there is no law.' Better: 'about these you don't make laws.' (Actually we should first contrast 'fruit' and 'works'--a huge difference right there!) Why? Because the Spirit's work is to spontaneously create these things, not because the human is trying so consciously, but because God's forgiveness of sins is so magnificent, that you enjoy others whom God has forgiven. The list of the fruit is not a Christian 'law' list--you will turn ugly trying to do it that way.
musterion
Well-known member
Okay, I'll play along for a minute.
Merit means deserved or earned.
If grace isn't unmerited, then grace must be merited; deserved; earned.
Question: How does one earn or come to deserve grace?
Answer: Through works.
There's no other possible option.
More self-salvation from CR the broken record, the skipping CD, the TV screen of static.
Merit means deserved or earned.
If grace isn't unmerited, then grace must be merited; deserved; earned.
Question: How does one earn or come to deserve grace?
Answer: Through works.
There's no other possible option.
More self-salvation from CR the broken record, the skipping CD, the TV screen of static.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But in Paul's presentation, the works are not the person's own works. There are works, to be sure, but they are someone else's--Christs. Gal 2:20's 'faith' of the Son of God is actually Christ's obedience and accomplishment (the NIV fails on this).
Because in Paul's system, things can be imputed/credited from one person to another. That's how the debt of sin is canceled. These things don't have to do with the side-effect of all this, which is personal transformation. The grace v. works issue has to do with justification from the debt.
Because in Paul's system, things can be imputed/credited from one person to another. That's how the debt of sin is canceled. These things don't have to do with the side-effect of all this, which is personal transformation. The grace v. works issue has to do with justification from the debt.
Cross Reference
New member
Can we not say that the fruit of the Spirit is an overwhelming desire to know God that we don't mistake His voice for another? The desire to be continually be in His Presence that His Life and ours be in union? None of this, however, can be entered into until one is born again, purposed for seeing it to act upon it.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But trace the doctrine of the Spirit in Galatians. It works through the declaration of the Gospel. There is nothing about the believer and his choices, but certainly the believer wants the things God wants. I just don't happen to trust the believers ability to do things as much as I do just God creating them in people's lives.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But every human is his offspring. They are not therefore Christians. Paul was not talking about Christians in Acts 17's presentation at that philosophy forum.
Grace and works by humans do not mix. Grace is Christ's merits alone for us.
Grace and works by humans do not mix. Grace is Christ's merits alone for us.
elohiym
Well-known member
I agree.
"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
No, but they are God's children. If they believe they are God's children, you say that doesn't make them sons of God?
Paul was preaching the gospel to idolatrous pagans. He was telling them that since they are God's children they shouldn't practice idolatry. One can't believe he's God's son and believe in false god's at the same time. That's cognitive dissonance.
Sure they do. We just don't work to earn our salvation. We work because God has ordained that we should do good works in Him. We didn't get in Him by doing good works. We are in Him if we are God's son, if we believe that.
I don't know what you mean by that.
All I'm saying is that if God is my Father then I merit his love.
I don't have to earn my Father's love.
Cross Reference
New member
beloved57
Well-known member
Thats what you say but you dont really believe that, and heres proof. Do you believe that Christ died to save all men without exception equally ? Yes or No ? If you say yes, then why arent all men without exception equally saved by His death for them ?
genuineoriginal
New member
The Bible says that you merit Grace (favor) through faith.
Cross Reference
New member
Beautiful! Lets build on that which will open up our understanding of Romans 5:1.
genuineoriginal
New member
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
Romans 9:13 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. |