God is infinite and eternal

[Prizebeatz1]

God is infinite and eternal. If Jesus is presumed to be God, then how is he infinite and eternal? In what way?

If we conclude that Jesus' spirit is infinite and eternal then we admit the story is not literal. He must not have died for our sins because we are saying a part of God died and is therefore not infinite and eternal.

If we move toward redefining death then we toy with the idea that he did not really die and the story quits having meaning because he did not die for our sins. Did he or did he not die on the cross?

Further, the idea that Jesus was both human and divine suggests that his humanity and divinity are separate and therefore God is not infinite.

Perhaps the story of Jesus has another explanation. Comments, suggestions, questions welcomed.


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[Bard_the_Bowman]

God is infinite and eternal. If Jesus is presumed to be God, then how is he infinite and eternal? In what way?

Hi Prizebeatz,

Jesus is infinite and eternal in the sense that He is an uncreated person. John 1 says that "without Him nothing was made that was made..."

So He existed before creation and is not a part of creation.

If we conclude that Jesus' spirit is infinite and eternal then we admit the story is not literal.

Why?

God the Father is pure spirit, literally.
God the Holy spirit is pure spirit, literally.
God the Son was pure spirit(literally) until He willingly humbled Himself to take on human flesh. (literally).

He must not have died for our sins because we are saying a part of God died and is therefore not infinite and eternal.

Death is the separation of the human spirit from the human body. It is not the spirit ceasing to exist.
So Jesus really did die for our sins. Not a part of Him died. He died.

But His spirit, like all humans, didn't cease to exist. So He is still infinite and eternal in the sense that He alway has existed. Just not with a human body.

If we move toward redefining death then we toy with the idea that he did not really die and the story quits having meaning because he did not die for our sins. Did he or did he not die on the cross?

I don't think we need to redefine death. It is the separation of the human spirit from the human body.

Praise God yes He died on the cross for our sins!

Further, the idea that Jesus was both human and divine suggests that his humanity and divinity are separate and therefore God is not infinite.

Not true. He is infinite. He just didn't always have a human nature.

Perhaps the story of Jesus has another explanation. Comments, suggestions, questions welcomed.

Like what?

Peace.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

God is infinite and eternal

Hi Prizebeatz,

Jesus is infinite and eternal in the sense that He is an uncreated person. John 1 says that "without Him nothing was made that was made..."

So He existed before creation and is not a part of creation.



Why?

God the Father is pure spirit, literally.
God the Holy spirit is pure spirit, literally.
God the Son was pure spirit(literally) until He willingly humbled Himself to take on human flesh. (literally).



Death is the separation of the human spirit from the human body. It is not the spirit ceasing to exist.
So Jesus really did die for our sins. Not a part of Him died. He died.

But His spirit, like all humans, didn't cease to exist. So He is still infinite and eternal in the sense that He alway has existed. Just not with a human body.



I don't think we need to redefine death. It is the separation of the human spirit from the human body.

Praise God yes He died on the cross for our sins!



Not true. He is infinite. He just didn't always have a human nature.



Like what?

Peace.

Hello Bard.

If Jesus is not also a part of creation then he is not infinite, imo since what is infinite has no limits.

Just as one example, do you honestly believe one can literally eat his flesh and drink his blood?

So the suggestion is at one point in time Jesus was not infinite and eternal when the spirit left his body for three days?

Perhaps born of a virgin, miraculous, rejected and buried yet still lives is symbolic of the the infinite eternal part of us known as the soul. Why wouldn't it point to our own internal divinity? Where else would our self-worth come from?




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[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hello Bard.

If Jesus is not also a part of creation then he is not infinite, imo since what is infinite has no limits.

Hey Prizebeatz,

Forgive me is I am missing your point. The created world has not eternally existed. It came into being at some point. God, who created the world, is outside of the created world and He has eternally existed.

God has eternally existed while creation has not.

Jesus stepping into the created world and becoming bounded by time shows that God has no limits.

Michael Card put it this way "Eternity stepped into time."

Just as one example, do you honestly believe one can literally eat his flesh and drink his blood?

What is that an example of again? I'm a little lost here. My apologies.

So the suggestion is at one point in time Jesus was not infinite and eternal when the spirit left his body for three days?

No, I don't think so, anyways. Jesus has always existed...infinitely and eternally. First as pure spirit, then as a spirit/body combo which is what humans are, then as pure spirit when His body was in the grave, then as spirit/body combo again.

But through all of that He existed. He didn't cease to exist. So He has eternally existed.

Perhaps born of a virgin, miraculous, rejected and buried yet still lives is symbolic of the the infinite eternal part of us known as the soul.

First, those things you mention may have symbolic meaning...but first they have literal meaning. They really happened. Jesus truly was miraculously born of a virgin, rejected buried and Resurrected.

Well, yeah, humans do have a spirit that lives on after it leaves the body. The book of Hebrews and Revelation, for example, support that idea.

But here is the difference between Jesus, God, and us mere humans. Our spirits are created by God when our bodies are. So we are not eternal. We haven't always existed like Jesus has. We have a created moment in time when we come to be. He didn't.

But we will continue for eternity into the future.

Why wouldn't it point to our own internal divinity?

Because humans aren't divine. We are not God. The best we can hope for is to become perfected human beings and become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). But that is God sharing His life of love within us. That is not us becoming gods.

God is infinitely more than us and always will be.

Where else would our self-worth come from?

Our self-worth comes from being loved and adopted sons and daughters of the most High God.

We are part of His family.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

Our self-worth comes from being loved and adopted sons and daughters of the most High God.

Adopted? Are you saying begotten means adopted?

If we are adopted, who is our father?

 

[Greek2Me]

Bard_the_Bowman

Just wanted to say how much I appreciated your initial response, a clear and succinct post.

I have NO idea why the idea of death as only separation of the spirit from the physical body eludes so many, and they must rush to equate it with "cessation of existence". I suspect it has to do with the fact that any admission Jesus "...had the authority to lay (his) life down and the authority to take it back up again" (John 10:17-18) it unacceptable because it allows that He is actually in control of the state feared by all men where they are effectively "helpless".

Personally, I find great comfort in the fact that, when MY demise approaches, He will be waiting to receive me. "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8)

Maranatha

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Adopted? Are you saying begotten means adopted?

If we are adopted, who is our father?

Hi Jamie.

No, I never said begotten means adopted. Begotten, like most words, has more than one meaning depending on the context it is used in.

I am saying that we are not, by nature, God. We are not gods. But we become God's children by adoption as Paul says in Galatians 4:4-7.

Jesus is God's son...but not adopted....because He is of the same nature as God. He is God.

Our fathers (biologically) are human.

Our adoptive Father is God. We can be adopted into His family.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

Our adoptive Father is God. We can be adopted into His family.

Jesus said we must be born of the Spirit, not adopted by him.

Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. (John 3:5-7)​

We are born once as human in a natural body, but we must be born again as Spirit in a spiritual body.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (Galatians 4:4-5)​

The Greek word for adoption simply means to be made a son. This can be done by begettal or it can be done by adoption.

The people of Israel were adopted as the Father's firstborn son. Jesus was begotten as the Father's firstborn son. We have the same father as Jesus and we will be born of the Spirit, not adopted by the Spirit.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Hey Prizebeatz,

Forgive me is I am missing your point. The created world has not eternally existed. It came into being at some point. God, who created the world, is outside of the created world and He has eternally existed.

God has eternally existed while creation has not.

Jesus stepping into the created world and becoming bounded by time shows that God has no limits.

Michael Card put it this way "Eternity stepped into time."



What is that an example of again? I'm a little lost here. My apologies.



No, I don't think so, anyways. Jesus has always existed...infinitely and eternally. First as pure spirit, then as a spirit/body combo which is what humans are, then as pure spirit when His body was in the grave, then as spirit/body combo again.

But through all of that He existed. He didn't cease to exist. So He has eternally existed.



First, those things you mention may have symbolic meaning...but first they have literal meaning. They really happened. Jesus truly was miraculously born of a virgin, rejected buried and Resurrected.

Well, yeah, humans do have a spirit that lives on after it leaves the body. The book of Hebrews and Revelation, for example, support that idea.

But here is the difference between Jesus, God, and us mere humans. Our spirits are created by God when our bodies are. So we are not eternal. We haven't always existed like Jesus has. We have a created moment in time when we come to be. He didn't.

But we will continue for eternity into the future.



Because humans aren't divine. We are not God. The best we can hope for is to become perfected human beings and become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). But that is God sharing His life of love within us. That is not us becoming gods.

God is infinitely more than us and always will be.



Our self-worth comes from being loved and adopted sons and daughters of the most High God.

We are part of His family.

Peace.

How can God be outside the created world if he is infinite?

By definition self-worth comes from within. Since God is infinite He must also be in us and cannot be separate from creation.


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[Right Divider]

How can God be outside the created world if he is infinite?

By definition self-worth comes from within. Since God is infinite He must also be in us and cannot be separate from creation.

Your pantheist babbling has no place on a Christian site. Go join your crazy friends somewhere else.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Your pantheist babbling has no place on a Christian site. Go join your crazy friends somewhere else.

Can you back up, prove or enforce what you're saying please.


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[Right Divider]

Can you back up, prove or enforce what you're saying please

God is not the universe. It is His CREATION. He CREATED it.

It's just that simple PB.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

God is not the universe. It is His CREATION. He CREATED it.

It's just that simple PB.

I see. Your view is that God is not infinite.

 

[Right Divider]

I see. Your view is that God is not infinite.

Not by your confused definition of what that means.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard_the_Bowman

Just wanted to say how much I appreciated your initial response, a clear and succinct post.

I have NO idea why the idea of death as only separation of the spirit from the physical body eludes so many, and they must rush to equate it with "cessation of existence". I suspect it has to do with the fact that any admission Jesus "...had the authority to lay (his) life down and the authority to take it back up again" (John 10:17-18) it unacceptable because it allows that He is actually in control of the state feared by all men where they are effectively "helpless".

Personally, I find great comfort in the fact that, when MY demise approaches, He will be waiting to receive me. "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8)

Maranatha

Hi Greek2Me,

It is interesting, isn't it?

It is precisely because Jesus is in control of the state feared by men (death) that many people have hope.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

How can God be outside the created world if he is infinite?

How can He not be?

I think RightDivider brings up a good point, we might be using different meanings for the term infinite.

It might help if you clarified what you mean by the term "infinite". We might be talking about different things. Thanks.

By definition self-worth comes from within. Since God is infinite He must also be in us and cannot be separate from creation.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
So the universe has a cause.

God is the cause of the universe and existed prior to it. So He, at least, was separate from creation because He existed before it did.

Is He still separate from creation? Well, I'd like to see what you mean by "infinite" first. That might help.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

God is the cause of the universe and existed prior to it. So He, at least, was separate from creation because He existed before it did.

The entire physical dimension is a creation and will be given to us as an inheritance. We are joint-heirs with the Son.

The spiritual dimension is the primary dimension.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Not by your confused definition of what that means.

What's your definition of infinite?


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[Right Divider]

What's your definition of infinite?

First, where does the Bible declare God to be infinite?

The Bible does say that God created the heaven and the earth.

The Bible does NOT support your pantheistic version of God.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

God is infinite and eternal

How can He not be?

I think RightDivider brings up a good point, we might be using different meanings for the term infinite.

It might help if you clarified what you mean by the term "infinite". We might be talking about different things. Thanks.



Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
So the universe has a cause.

God is the cause of the universe and existed prior to it. So He, at least, was separate from creation because He existed before it did.

Is He still separate from creation? Well, I'd like to see what you mean by "infinite" first. That might help.

Peace.

Why not use the standard definition of limitless? So how can what is limitless be limited? If God is infinite he cannot be outside of creation by definition.

Also if the spirit is of God and the spirit separates from the body at death, then we're suggesting there is a place where the spirit is not (the body) which negates the definition of God being infinite and limitless. I'm not pretending to know the answer because I don't.


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