ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[TweetyBird]

Yes, the term refers to a condition in which one is spiritually separated from God.

But it does not mean the person is dead, their spirit still lives. The spirit is the life of the person, the breath of life.

Well, yes actually it does. That which is dead is dead. To say otherwise is to contradict yourself or to be intentionally confusing to people. What one's spirit does not do is cease to exist.

According to Webster's - die means to cease to exist. They mean the same thing. :doh::doh::doh:



Full Definition of die
dieddying play \ˈdī-iŋ\

intransitive verb

1
: to pass from physical life : expire

2
a : to pass out of existence : cease <their anger died at these words> b : to disappear or subside gradually —often used with away, down, or out <the storm died down>

3
a : sink, languish <dying from fatigue> b : to long keenly or desperately <dying to go> c : to be overwhelmed by emotion <die of embarrassment>

4
a : to cease functioning : stop <the motor died> b : to end in failure <the bill died in committee>

5
: to become indifferent <die to worldly things>


Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I completely get it. You are being stubborn! That's it and that's all. You do not disagree with me, you simply insist on saying that dead spirits aren't dead when what you mean is that dead spirits don't cease to exist.

Resting in Him,
Clete

It is you that does not "get it". You are looking more and more foolish, the more you post.

 

[Clete]

But it does not mean the person is dead, their spirit still lives. The spirit is the life of the person, the breath of life.

As I explained when I first posted a response to you, death is a separation. To be spiritually dead means simply that you (that is your soul/spirit) are separated from God. Physical death is to be separated from your physical body.

And so, to accurately communicate the point you have made here, you wouldn't say that your spirit still lives because it is dead in that it is seperated from God but your spirit continues to exist within your physical body and so you have not died physically. Thus the very same distinction you are making is still made but without the needless confusion inherent with the insistence of stating that you're spiritually dead but your spirit isn't dead.

According to Webster's - die means to cease to exist. They mean the same thing. :doh::doh::doh:

You are aware that this is a theology forum, right?

I, of course understand that the English word 'death' can be used to convey the idea that one has ceased to exist but Webster doesn't inform our doctrine, the bible does. Biblically, to be spiritually dead does NOT mean that one has ceased to exist, which you agree with! Why would you quote a source that contradicts your own position?

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

AMEN! The whole point of the Christian faith is life from death!

It is you that does not "get it". You are looking more and more foolish, the more you post.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I totally get it and you know it. You DO NOT disagree with what I am saying and never have. You are simply stubbornly clinging to what I am beginning to believe is a trumped up use of the word dead. In other words, I'm beginning to believe you don't really have any issue with clearly communicating the point in the way I'm communicating it. You seem to simply be arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. Which is fine with me, by the way. Discussing such issues is what I come here to do and I am fully aware that you are not the only person who reads these posts. So, by all means, continue to give me the opportunity to clearly articulate this critical theological point.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

TweetyBird,

Did Jesus, God the Son, die?

If so, in what sense did He do so?

 

[Rosenritter]

TweetyBird,

Did Jesus, God the Son, die?

If so, in what sense did He do so?

When you create a world you can die within that world as often as you like. I have created small worlds and died within them when I entered and played by my own rules. That's analogy, not blasphemy. God's world is a bit grander than the board games and computer games I have made.

 

[TweetyBird]

TweetyBird,

Did Jesus, God the Son, die?

If so, in what sense did He do so?

Jesus died physically. He commended His Spirit to the Father.

 

[TweetyBird]

As I explained when I first posted a response to you, death is a separation. To be spiritually dead means simply that you (that is your soul/spirit) are separated from God. Physical death is to be separated from your physical body.

Physical death is not separation from one's physical body. That makes no sense. And no, spiritual death is not that one's soul/spirit is separated from God. What a strange concept.

And so, to accurately communicate the point you have made here, you wouldn't say that your spirit still lives because it is dead in that it is seperated from God but your spirit continues to exist within your physical body and so you have not died physically. Thus the very same distinction you are making is still made but without the needless confusion inherent with the insistence of stating that you're spiritually dead but your spirit isn't dead.

You are the one who is confused. The spirit returns to God who gave it when a person physically dies. You are mixing up concepts, not me.

You are aware that this is a theology forum, right?

I, of course understand that the English word 'death' can be used to convey the idea that one has ceased to exist but Webster doesn't inform our doctrine, the bible does. Biblically, to be spiritually dead does NOT mean that one has ceased to exist, which you agree with! Why would you quote a source that contradicts your own position?

To die means that one's physical body stops working aka fails aka is pronounced dead. That has nothing to do with the spirit who returns to God who gave it.



AMEN! The whole point of the Christian faith is life from death!

aying it doesn't make it so.

I totally get it and you know it. You DO NOT disagree with what I am saying and never have. You are simply stubbornly clinging to what I am beginning to believe is a trumped up use of the word dead. In other words, I'm beginning to believe you don't really have any issue with clearly communicating the point in the way I'm communicating it. You seem to simply be arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. Which is fine with me, by the way. Discussing such issues is what I come here to do and I am fully aware that you are not the only person who reads these posts. So, by all means, continue to give me the opportunity to clearly articulate this critical theological point.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You are not making a theological point. You are refusing to understand the clear text. When our physical body dies, we are present with the Lord. Now just how does that work for you?

 

[Clete]

Physical death is not separation from one's physical body. That makes no sense. And no, spiritual death is not that one's soul/spirit is separated from God. What a strange concept.

It isn't strange at all and, until this post, you were in agreement with it or at least never bothered to express any disagreement with it.

This entire discussion has revolved around the definition of terms - from the very first time I engaged you on this topic.

If you disagree with the definition I've provided, which is quite biblical by the way, then provide one of your own and we can discuss it.

You are the one who is confused. The spirit returns to God who gave it when a person physically dies. You are mixing up concepts, not me.

I'm not confusing anything. I've already conceded that the spirit returns to God upon death but for judgment not to begin some sort of new relationship with Him or to somehow melt back into God's essence or whatever it is you're suggesting here.

To die means that one's physical body stops working aka fails aka is pronounced dead.

Which happens when your spirit leaves it.

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.​

That has nothing to do with the spirit who returns to God who gave it.

So are you arguing then that the spiritually dead no longer exist? What else could you mean by having quoted Webster?

You are not making a theological point. You are refusing to understand the clear text. When our physical body dies, we are present with the Lord. Now just how does that work for you?

What do you mean, how does it work for me? How would it conflict with anything I've stated?

When I talk about being separated from God being spiritual death, I am not talking about being separated in terms of location. God is everywhere that He wants to be. You cannot escape God's location. I'm talking about your relationship with God. If you are in rebellion to God your relationship with Him has been severed and you are spiritually dead, by definition. That's what it means to be spiritually dead. You are cut off from the God which is Life. If you die physically and spiritually leave this world to meet your Maker for judgment and this condition has not been remedied, the condition will be made permanent and you will spend eternity both relationally and locationally separated from the presence of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[TweetyBird]

It isn't strange at all and, until this post, you were in agreement with it or at least never bothered to express any disagreement with it.

You seem to enjoy making up things that I supposedly said.

This entire discussion has revolved around the definition of terms - from the very first time I engaged you on this topic.

If you disagree with the definition I've provided, which is quite biblical by the way, then provide one of your own and we can discuss it.

No, your definition of terms is not Biblical. That is why this discussion is at a stalemate.

I'm not confusing anything. I've already conceded that the spirit returns to God upon death but for judgment not to begin some sort of new relationship with Him or to somehow melt back into God's essence or whatever it is you're suggesting here.

I never hinted or implied that there is a "new relationship with Him or somehow melt back into God's essence", but it looks like you want to go another rabbit trail. whatever.

Which happens when your spirit leaves it.

Which is what I have said all along.

So are you arguing then that the spiritually dead no longer exist? What else could you mean by having quoted Webster?

Not at all, for the umpteeth time. The spirit of a person is his life - why he is alive. Without the spirit, you are dead. That is why, when Jesus commended His Spirit to His Father, His physical body died. His Spirit did not die. The spirit does not die - which HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

What do you mean, how does it work for me? How would it conflict with anything I've stated?

What happens to one's spirit when they die?

When I talk about being separated from God being spiritual death, I am not talking about being separated in terms of location. God is everywhere that He wants to be. You cannot escape God's location. I'm talking about your relationship with God. If you are in rebellion to God your relationship with Him has been severed and you are spiritually dead, by definition. That's what it means to be spiritually dead. You are cut off from the God which is Life. If you die physically and spiritually leave this world to meet your Maker for judgment and this condition has not been remedied, the condition will be made permanent and you will spend eternity both relationally and locationally separated from the presence of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Ok, when one is spiritually dead they are separated from God. We totally agree on this. But the person's spirit is not dead, even though spiritually, the person is separated from God. We were all spiritually dead before we believed in Jesus CHrist. The spirit is what gives life to the body. When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body - it goes back to God who gave it and is eternal - like I said before - either to eternal life or to eternal torment.

 

[Clete]

Jesus died physically. He commended His Spirit to the Father.

Thank you for the straight answer. It's amazing how rare that is around here.

If Jesus only died physically, in what way does that deal with our spiritual problem?

I submit that He died both physically and spiritually.

When Jesus was on the cross He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46)
This indicates the spiritual separation from God that I am referring to. This was Jesus' Spiritual death.
Once He gave up His Spirit and died physically, we know that He did not immediately ascend to the Father, as your position seems to strongly suggest, but rather descended into the place of the righteous dead (a.k.a. 'Abraham's Bosom' and/or 'Paradise' (see Luke chapters 16 and 23)).
Then at a point after the Resurrection, Jesus ascended to the Father, not before. (John 20:17).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

TB,

I am seriously beginning to believe that you are just playing games. You say one thing and then contradict yourself two seconds later.

First, you say that the idea of your spirit leaving (i.e. separating from) you body is what it means to die physically is somehow a weird concept and then you say that it "is what [you] have said all along."!


Not only that but you continuously say insulting things that I have ignored up till now, presuming that you are simply missing my point somehow. I still am convinced that you and I mostly agree on this issue and that the primary difference is semantic in nature. It is either that you are playing games - one or the other.

I am however quickly running out of patience. I frankly just don't care that much about whether you agree with me or not. If you want to discuss the issue, I'm happy to do so but it's going to have quickly become a two-way conversation or I'll simply move on.

I personally would prefer to continue but I'll let you pick.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[TweetyBird]

Thank you for the straight answer. It's amazing how rare that is around here.

If Jesus only died physically, in what way does that deal with our spiritual problem?

Atonement - He died for our sins, we are spiritually alive in Him, because of His shed blood. One's spirit is still alive whether or not they believe in Christ.

I submit that He died both physically and spiritually.

He commended His Spirit to the father, so how could His spirit die? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit died?

When Jesus was on the cross He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46)
This indicates the spiritual separation from God that I am referring to.

But His Spirit was still in His body.

We have already established that separation from God is due to sin. Are you now calling Jesus a sinner?

Once He gave up His Spirit and died physically, we know that He did not immediately ascend to the Father, as your position seems to strongly suggest, but rather descended into the place of the righteous dead (a.k.a. 'Abraham's Bosom' and/or 'Paradise' (see Luke chapters 16 and 23)).
Then at a point after the Resurrection, Jesus ascended to the Father, not before. (John 20:17).

Resting in Him,
Clete

His Spirit did not descend into the tomb. His Spirit was the Father's Spirits in "Heaven" on the throne. His Spirit remained there until Jesus took up His life as God commanded. Jesus' Spirit going to His Father has nothing to do with His ascension.

 

[jamie]

"Let the dead bury their dead" (Jesus)

 

[Clete]

Atonement - He died for our sins, we are spiritually alive in Him, because of His shed blood. One's spirit is still alive whether or not they believe in Christ.

This does not answer my question. How would a mere physical death atone for a spiritual debt? Our problem is not a physical one but a spiritual one.

He commended His Spirit to the father, so how could His spirit die? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit died?

I'm saying that Jesus was spiritually separated from the Father which is what it means to be spiritually dead. We are, as I have said countless times, in agreement that to die spiritually does not mean that one's spirit ceases to exist.

But His Spirit was still in His body.

Right, which means that He had not yet died physically. Just was we, when we sin, we die spiritually but not physically (Romans 7:9).

We have already established that separation from God is due to sin. Are you now calling Jesus a sinner?

Of course not! Jesus was not guilty of sin or else His death would not have paid anything but His own sin debt. It is the fact that He was innocent that makes His sacrifice work. Jesus was not a sinner, He became sin for us!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

His Spirit did not descend into the tomb. His Spirit was the Father's Spirits in "Heaven" on the throne. His Spirit remained there until Jesus took up His life as God commanded.

That is not what the text of scripture says. Jesus Himself said both that He would be in paradise with the believing criminal and that He had not yet ascended to the Father upon His resurrection.

Jesus' Spirit going to His Father has nothing to do with His ascension.

This may well be the case. THE ascension, spoken of in Acts 1, doesn't happen for forty days after the resurrection and may well be a separate event from His ascending to the Father which Jesus told Mary Magdalene to report to the Disciples that He was about to do in John 20. In any case, it is quite clear that as of His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to the Father."

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

This does not answer my question. How would a mere physical death atone for a spiritual debt? Our problem is not a physical one but a spiritual one.


I'm saying that Jesus was spiritually separated from the Father which is what it means to be spiritually dead. We are, as I have said countless times, in agreement that to die spiritually does not mean that one's spirit ceases to exist.


Right, which means that He had not yet died physically. Just was we, when we sin, we die spiritually but not physically (Romans 7:9).


Of course not! Jesus was not guilty of sin or else His death would not have paid anything but His own sin debt. It is the fact that He was innocent that makes His sacrifice work. Jesus was not a sinner, He became sin for us!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

That is not what the text of scripture says. Jesus Himself said both that He would be in paradise with the believing criminal and that He had not yet ascended to the Father upon His resurrection.


This may well be the case. THE ascension, spoken of in Acts 1, doesn't happen for forty days after the resurrection and may well be a separate event from His ascending to the Father which Jesus told Mary Magdalene to report to the Disciples that He was about to do in John 20. In any case, it is quite clear that as of His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to the Father."

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, your question is easily answered. Did the Son of Man have the power to forgive sin? Yes or no.

Does it matter whether he says "take up your bed and walk" or "look upon the cross?" He can forgive sin either way.

 

[TweetyBird]

This does not answer my question. How would a mere physical death atone for a spiritual debt? Our problem is not a physical one but a spiritual one.

Because that is what God said/planned/purposed/carried out. That was always His plan - even in the old covenant - the physical blood of animals atoned for sin [only temporary, however] - it was a spiritual process through physical death.

Heb 8,9 & Isaiah 53

I'm saying that Jesus was spiritually separated from the Father which is what it means to be spiritually dead.

No it's not. Spiritually dead, as you have stated, is being in a sinful state - unsaved, unregenerated. Jesus was never in a sinful state. He sent His Spirit to the Father. His Spirit was not dead.

We are, as I have said countless times, in agreement that to die spiritually does not mean that one's spirit ceases to exist.

But that is exactly what you are stating - that the spirit dies. You just said it.

Right, which means that He had not yet died physically. Just was we, when we sin, we die spiritually but not physically (Romans 7:9).

If one is a believer, their sin no longer separates them from God. In Christ we are alive spiritually forever more.

Of course not! Jesus was not guilty of sin or else His death would not have paid anything but His own sin debt. It is the fact that He was innocent that makes His sacrifice work. Jesus was not a sinner, He became sin for us!

If sin is separation from God aka spiritually dead - and then say Jesus died spiritually, you are saying that Jesus sinned.

That is not what the text of scripture says. Jesus Himself said both that He would be in paradise with the believing criminal and that He had not yet ascended to the Father upon His resurrection.

I said nothing about Jesus' resurrection. Paradise is Heaven. His Spirit was in Heaven/paradise. Not His body - it was in the grave. Paul clearly stated that when one is not present in the body, they are present with the Lord. That is one's spirit.

This may well be the case. THE ascension, spoken of in Acts 1, doesn't happen for forty days after the resurrection and may well be a separate event from His ascending to the Father which Jesus told Mary Magdalene to report to the Disciples that He was about to do in John 20. In any case, it is quite clear that as of His resurrection He had "not yet ascended to the Father."

That is a whole other topic - I don't want to side track the discussion.

 

[Rosenritter]

Because that is what God said/planned/purposed/carried out. That was always His plan - even in the old covenant - the physical blood of animals atoned for sin [only temporary, however] - it was a spiritual process through physical death.

Heb 8,9 & Isaiah 53




No it's not. Spiritually dead, as you have stated, is being in a sinful state - unsaved, unregenerated. Jesus was never in a sinful state. He sent His Spirit to the Father. His Spirit was not dead.



But that is exactly what you are stating - that the spirit dies. You just said it.



If one is a believer, their sin no longer separates them from God. In Christ we are alive spiritually forever more.



If sin is separation from God aka spiritually dead - and then say Jesus died spiritually, you are saying that Jesus sinned.



I said nothing about Jesus' resurrection. Paradise is Heaven. His Spirit was in Heaven/paradise. Not His body - it was in the grave. Paul clearly stated that when one is not present in the body, they are present with the Lord. That is one's spirit.



That is a whole other topic - I don't want to side track the discussion.

Who was speaking when Jesus said he had not yet ascended to his Father? The body of Jesus or the spirit of Jesus?

 

[Cross Reference]

How would a mere physical death atone for a spiritual debt? Our problem is not a physical one but a spiritual one.

Because it was a sinless death offered up to God that could only restore mans access to the Throne of God, his own eternally hindered to reconciliation, soul, expressed by theologians as being "spiritually dead", forbade him such needed access. Ergo, the souls of righteous men held in "Abraham's Bosom" to await freedom to the Throne of God because of the shed blood of Jesus that made it all possible..

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)

It's all there in what Jesus said.


End of my participation. < back on ignore >

 

[Clete]

Because that is what God said/planned/purposed/carried out. That was always His plan - even in the old covenant - the physical blood of animals atoned for sin [only temporary, however] - it was a spiritual process through physical death.

Heb 8,9 & Isaiah 53




No it's not. Spiritually dead, as you have stated, is being in a sinful state - unsaved, unregenerated. Jesus was never in a sinful state. He sent His Spirit to the Father. His Spirit was not dead.



But that is exactly what you are stating - that the spirit dies. You just said it.



If one is a believer, their sin no longer separates them from God. In Christ we are alive spiritually forever more.



If sin is separation from God aka spiritually dead - and then say Jesus died spiritually, you are saying that Jesus sinned.



I said nothing about Jesus' resurrection. Paradise is Heaven. His Spirit was in Heaven/paradise. Not His body - it was in the grave. Paul clearly stated that when one is not present in the body, they are present with the Lord. That is one's spirit.



That is a whole other topic - I don't want to side track the discussion.

This entire post was essentially unresponsive.

I mean it was a response but it was basically, "I disagree.", "I disagree", "I disagree."

Okay, fine. You disagree. Who cares? Personal opinions are cheap and easy. WHY do you disagree? I've given you biblical reasons why I hold my positon, why I believe that spiritual death is a separation (relationally) from God the Father. I've quoted you scripture that demonstrates that this separation occurred with Christ while He was on the cross and that He did not die physically until He gave up His spirit (i.e. until His spirit left His body).

You respond with bald assertions and unsupported assumptions that you're required to make in order to maintain what amounts to a semantic difference in doctrine. You say that spiritual death is being in a sinful state but reject for no reason the notion that Jesus died spiritually when He became sin for us causing God to forsake Him.

I explicitly stated that Christ's Spirit did not cease to exist and then your response is to effect say, "Yes, you did." Well, actually no, I didn't. You can jump up and down and pound your fist and get all mad and angry at me if you like but I'm not going to repeat my position over and over and over again just to turn my face blue. I've been completely consistent and as patient as I know how to be and you seem bent on just wasting my time. Which really sucks by the way, because this is actually a really cool topic that goes right to the very heart of the gospel itself and which I particularly enjoy discussing because it's not the superficial silliness that passes for intellectual discourse around here most of the time.

If you want to try again, I'd appreciate it but at least make some sort of effort to support your position with an actual argument. Don't just repeat your position for the umpteenth time or merely tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me why, explain it, prove it if you can. I promise to do the same.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Because it was a sinless death offered up to God that could only restore mans access to the Throne of God, his own eternally hindered to reconciliation, soul, expressed by theologians as being "spiritually dead", forbade him such needed access. Ergo, the souls of righteous men held in "Abraham's Bosom" to await freedom to the Throne of God because of the shed blood of Jesus that made it all possible..

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26 (KJV)

It's all there in what Jesus said.


End of my participation. < back on ignore >

Thanks for wasting everyone's time by offering an answer that didn't even address the question asked.

Please just keep me on ignore, okay?

 

[TweetyBird]

This entire post was essentially unresponsive.

I mean it was a response but it was basically, "I disagree.", "I disagree", "I disagree."

Okay, fine. You disagree. Who cares? Personal opinions are cheap and easy. WHY do you disagree? I've given you biblical reasons why I hold my positon, why I believe that spiritual death is a separation (relationally) from God the Father. I've quoted you scripture that demonstrates that this separation occurred with Christ while He was on the cross and that He did not die physically until He gave up His spirit (i.e. until His spirit left His body).

You respond with bald assertions and unsupported assumptions that you're required to make in order to maintain what amounts to a semantic difference in doctrine. You say that spiritual death is being in a sinful state but reject for no reason the notion that Jesus died spiritually when He became sin for us causing God to forsake Him.

I explicitly stated that Christ's Spirit did not cease to exist and then your response is to effect say, "Yes, you did." Well, actually no, I didn't. You can jump up and down and pound your fist and get all mad and angry at me if you like but I'm not going to repeat my position over and over and over again just to turn my face blue. I've been completely consistent and as patient as I know how to be and you seem bent on just wasting my time. Which really sucks by the way, because this is actually a really cool topic that goes right to the very heart of the gospel itself and which I particularly enjoy discussing because it's not the superficial silliness that passes for intellectual discourse around here most of the time.

If you want to try again, I'd appreciate it but at least make some sort of effort to support your position with an actual argument. Don't just repeat your position for the umpteenth time or merely tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me why, explain it, prove it if you can. I promise to do the same.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Separation from God is due to sin. It has nothing to do with dying physically. Jesus was not separated from God because of sin. He is sinless. Jesus said that God forsook Him, that is not separation. Jesus Spirit was within, the same Spirit of God. God forsook Him having been the bearer of all sin.