God does not condemn sinners to hell without first offering them salvation in Jesus

[marke]

God is not an unjust judge. If He condemned sinners for being born in sin without hope then He would be wicked. He is not willing that any should perish but perish they will if they reject His offer of salvation.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings marke,

God is not an unjust judge. If He condemned sinners for being born in sin without hope then He would be wicked.

The destination of those who have not responded to the Gospel is the grave, not hell Genesis 3:19.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[marke]

Greetings marke,

The destination of those who have not responded to the Gospel is the grave, not hell Genesis 3:19.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you believe rebels who reject God and die in their sins go to hell?

 

[ttruscott]

I believe a number of things...

The only sinners going to hell are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

Only those who have never believed, that is, have NEVER put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and in the Son as their saviour from sin. From their first free will decision they have rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god, sealing their fate with this blasphemy, before they were sown into the world, Matt 13:36-39. All people are sinners is just another way of saying "Only sinners are sown into the world," both the sinful elect sown by the Son of Man and the sons of the evil one sown by the devil.

I also agree that one can only get condemned to hell by a free will decision to sin the unforgivable sin, that is, the blasphemy against YHWH of never having put their faith in HIM, rebuking HIS claims of being our Deity as evil lies. When they are sown into the world, they are sinful and condemned already proving that they made their free will decision to reject HIM before they were conceived into the world to live with the sinful elect sons of the kingdom who did put their faith in YHWH also before being sown into this world but then rebelled against HIS commands as too onerous.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again marke

Do you believe rebels who reject God and die in their sins go to hell?

Firstly to be clear, I reject the concept of immortal souls and that immortal souls go to heaven or hell at death. When Adam and Eve sinned they were condemned to return to the dust, and after a long life they died and returned to the dust. The Gospel has been preached in Eden Genesis 3:15 and since then with expanded detail Acts 8:5-6,12. Those that affectionately respond to the Gospel and identify with the death and resurrection by water baptism and live a life in conformity with this Galatians 2:20 will be raised at the return of Christ and given everlasting life upon the earth for the 1000 years and beyond. I consider the wicked to be in two categories. Those that have heard the Gospel and have rejected this, and God will raise at least some of these and reject them at the Judgement Seat and they will suffer the second death and return to the dust. I consider that many who have never heard the Gospel will have lived their lives, then they die and return to the dust, and have no future resurrection or consciousness.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rstrats]

God is not an unjust judge. If He condemned sinners for being born in sin without hope then He would be wicked. He is not willing that any should perish but perish they will if they reject His offer of salvation.

Does the supreme being have any input with regard to the creation of an individual, and if He does, does He know before the individual is created that He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire, and if He does, why do you suppose He would go ahead and create the individual anyway?

 

[marke]

Greetings again marke

Firstly to be clear, I reject the concept of immortal souls and that immortal souls go to heaven or hell at death. When Adam and Eve sinned they were condemned to return to the dust, and after a long life they died and returned to the dust. The Gospel has been preached in Eden Genesis 3:15 and since then with expanded detail Acts 8:5-6,12. Those that affectionately respond to the Gospel and identify with the death and resurrection by water baptism and live a life in conformity with this Galatians 2:20 will be raised at the return of Christ and given everlasting life upon the earth for the 1000 years and beyond. I consider the wicked to be in two categories. Those that have heard the Gospel and have rejected this, and God will raise at least some of these and reject them at the Judgement Seat and they will suffer the second death and return to the dust. I consider that many who have never heard the Gospel will have lived their lives, then they die and return to the dust, and have no future resurrection or consciousness.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree with the traditional Christian views that sinners who reject God go to long-term punishment in the fires of hell, not just return to dust.

Mark 9:43-45

King James Version

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

 

[marke]

Does the supreme being have any input with regard to the creation of an individual, and if He does, does He know before the individual is created that He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire, and if He does, why do you suppose He would go ahead and create the individual anyway?

Of course God knows everything from the end to the beginning and of course He allows sinners to be born, knowing they will reject Him. Why would that be a problem?

 

[rstrats]

Of course God knows everything from the end to the beginning and of course He allows sinners to be born, knowing they will reject Him. Why would that be a problem?

I assume you're being sarcastic.

 

[marke]

I assume you're being sarcastic.

No, I'm not. If God had been a Calvinist then it would not make sense for Him to create sinners without any hope of getting saved, but God is not a Calvinist. He creates sinners and offers all hope of salvation and saves those who believe and receive His word. God had to buy the world (all sinners) in order to own the treasure in the world (those who get saved by faith.) God's plan does make sense but sinners should ask Him to make
His reasoning clear to them if they don't yet understand.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again marke,

I agree with the traditional Christian views that sinners who reject God go to long-term punishment in the fires of hell, not just return to dust.

Mark 9:43-45 King James Version 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

I am interested if you have done research on this subject. Perhaps to start with, there are two words translated "hell" in the NT. In the passage that you quote the word hell is "gehenna" and one explanation states: "This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned". As such they used to burn the rubbish and the dead would also be consumed by the worms or maggots. It is also suggested that this is where the worst of the criminals were also cast. Hence it is not talking about tormenting immortal souls for eternity, but rejection at the judgement seat and then ending up in the second death.

The other word is "hades" and this can be translated the grave, and in Acts 2:31 it speaks of the resurrection of Jesus from the grave.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[marke]

Greetings again marke,

I am interested if you have done research on this subject. Perhaps to start with, there are two words translated "hell" in the NT. In the passage that you quote the word hell is "gehenna" and one explanation states: "This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned". As such they used to burn the rubbish and the dead would also be consumed by the worms or maggots. It is also suggested that this is where the worst of the criminals were also cast. Hence it is not talking about tormenting immortal souls for eternity, but rejection at the judgement seat and then ending up in the second death.

The other word is "hades" and this can be translated the grave, and in Acts 2:31 it speaks of the resurrection of Jesus from the grave.

Kind regards
Trevor

I did not go to seminary to get insight into the Bible. I did not go to the dictionary or the lexicon to get insight. I prayed to God for wisdom and ended up accepting the clear wording for just what it says.

Mark 9

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again marke,

I prayed to God for wisdom and ended up accepting the clear wording for just what it says.

Are there immortal worms in hell? Jesus is quoting or alluding to Isaiah 66:24 and this is speaking of carcasses, not immortal souls.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rstrats]

No, I'm not. If God had been a Calvinist then it would not make sense for Him to create sinners without any hope of getting saved, but God is not a Calvinist. He creates sinners and offers all hope of salvation and saves those who believe and receive His word.

So then He doesn't know before He creates a person whether or not He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?

 

[marke]

So then He doesn't know before He creates a person whether or not He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?

God knows that many sinners will reject His love and gift of salvation, but God had to allow sinners to make that bad choice if He was to give sinners the freedom to make the choice as He wanted them to have the liberty to make. God did not want to make humans like mechanical robots designed to love Him without having anything to say about that.

 

[marke]

Greetings again marke,

Are there immortal worms in hell? Jesus is quoting or alluding to Isaiah 66:24 and this is speaking of carcasses, not immortal souls.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sinners have been described as worms.

Psalm 22:6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

 

[rstrats]

God knows that many sinners will reject His love and gift of salvation...

But does He know before He creates a specific sinner that He will eventually be tossing that sinner into the lake of fire?

 

[JudgeRightly]

But does He know before He creates a specific sinner that He will eventually be tossing that sinner into the lake of fire?

No. Because the person doesn't exist yet.

 

[marke]

But does He know before He creates a specific sinner that He will eventually be tossing that sinner into the lake of fire?

Absolutely. God knows the end from the beginning. The best analogy humans have come up with, even though still very poor, is time travel. God can 'travel in time' freely because He is God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Absolutely.

Wrong.

God knows the end from the beginning.

This is not what scripture says.

What it ACTUALLY says is:

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:9-10&version=NKJV

God DECLARES the end from the beginning. That's completely different than knowing it.

The best analogy humans have come up with, even though still very poor, is time travel. God can 'travel in time' freely because He is God.

This is science fiction, not reality.

Nowhere in scripture does God "travel in time," either to change what happened in the past, or to do something in the future.

God exists in the present.

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. | KGOV.com

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