Gal 4 explodes 2P2P again (boring)

Interplanner

Well-known member
There are two covenants in the picture, and nothing else needs to be mentioned about them other than what is going in the analogy. That is, the 'land' promise does not even matter in the old covenant of bondage.

What matters is that there is bondage to the slavery of Judaism in one, and freedom in Christ and justification in the other.

They are both operating at the time--if there is anything worthwhile about 'bondage' operating.

There is nothing in either about the 'land promise' which, if anything, would matter to the slavery covenant.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
And neither of the covenants in Galatians is the "New Covenant", unless you are willing to concede that God is so out of order as to have the New Covenant precede the Old Covenant. :chuckle:
 

northwye

New member
" 23. Yea and he which was of the bond woman was born after the flesh: but he which was of the free woman was borne by promise.
24 Which things betoken mystery. For these women are two testaments the one from the Mount Sinai which gendreth unto bondage which is Agar.
25 For mount Sinai is called Agar in Arabia and bordreth unto the city which is now Jerusalem and is in bondage with her children."
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free: which is the Mother of us all. " Galatians 4: 22-26, Tyndale NT

Tyndale is a little off in translating αλληγορουμενα as "mystery." It should be translated as allegorized or as metaphoric. But I enjoy Tyndale. And studies say that about eighty percent of the King James New Testament wordings are almost identical or very close to those of Tyndale and the same is true for the Geneva Bible.

A few years ago I had a Bible study on a blog which was about redeemed Israel or the Israel of God, as being different from Old Covenant Israel. I used Galatians 4: 22-26 and especially Galatians 4: 26 to support that claim. Some guy argued with me and said that Galatians 4: 22-26 is not about Israel, but is only about the two covenants. But of course this text is also about Israel, and verse 26 uses Jerusalem as a metaphor for Israel reborn in Jesus Christ - which is New Covenant Israel, or redeemed Israel.

This guy who argued with my post using Galatians 4: 26 to stand for redeemed Israel of the New Covenant has a book out called The End Times Passover, 2006, in which he uses scripture to show that the pre-tribulation rapture theory is false.

Fearless Dave MacPhearson, who wrote a more famous book, The Rapture Plot, mentions The End Times Passover somewhere.

I doubt that even a few of the Christian Zionists understand that Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 26 refers to Israel transformed by Christ and in Christ into the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5. Christian Zionism starts from the postulate that God has two separate peoples, two groups of the elect, Old Covenant Israel and the Church, from ekklesia. For Christian Zionists the Church cannot be Redeemed Israel. For those in this theology the bloodline must always be separate from the Church.
 

Danoh

New member
You might consider that Tyndale's use of the word "mystery" there just might have been influenced by whatever the various uses of the word "mystery" had been in his day.

This kind of a thing is something many who profess to have some sort of an expertise at so called "correcting" and or "updating" those old Bible translations, are forever dropping the ball on.

The rest of your post is just as shoddy.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You might consider that Tyndale's use of the word "mystery" there just might have been influenced by whatever the various uses of the word "mystery" had been in his day.

This kind of a thing is something many who profess to have some sort of an expertise at so called "correcting" and or "updating" those old Bible translations, are forever dropping the ball on.

The rest of your post is just as shoddy.

If you did not hate Greek grammar your foregone 2P2P conclusions would melt away instantaneously. Further, when you let go of carnal expectations and focus on the Messianic Enterprise rather than the Starship Enterprise and the Millenium Falcon, your ideas will come into line with Holford.
 

Danoh

New member
If you did not hate Greek grammar your foregone 2P2P conclusions would melt away instantaneously. Further, when you let go of carnal expectations and focus on the Messianic Enterprise rather than the Starship Enterprise and the Millenium Falcon, your ideas will come into line with Holford.

Personally, I prefer the Star Trek: Voyager series over the others :)
 

Interplanner

Well-known member



You "dunno" (see your cartoon) because you don't know Hebrews, where it is the eternal covenant between God and Christ on behalf of mankind. You simply don't know the NT, you don't know how it affects the OT, etc. The eternal covenant is before. That is why we are not trying to go the direction of the old covenant, and why the old covenant was a symbol or type or shadow or copy of the Reality which is Christ. Bingo!

There is once again nothing about Israel or the land, there does not need to be, and it needs to be about freedom in Christ and the preservation of that. Obviously that is what Gal 4 is about, unless you live in the lalaland of XPXP, where God's invisible physicality is physically and literally physical.
 
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SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You "dunno" (see your cartoon) because you don't know Hebrews, where it is the eternal covenant between God and Christ on behalf of mankind. You simply don't know the NT, you don't know how it affects the OT, etc. The eternal covenant is before. That is why we are not trying to go the direction of the old covenant, and why the old covenant was a symbol or type or shadow or copy of the Reality which is Christ. Bingo!

There is once again nothing about Israel or the land, there does not need to be, and it needs to be about freedom in Christ and the preservation of that. Obviously that is what Gal 4 is about, unless you live in the lalaland of XPXP, where God's invisible physicality is physically and literally physical.

So, the New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant?
Go on record with that.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
So, the New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant?
Go on record with that.



The new was eternal, Heb 13. it was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8

The new covenant was already there before the shadow/copy/pattern version was put out for temporary use. Your structures are backwards. It was between God and Christ, Christ acting on behalf of mankind, in promise before history unrolled.

You simply don't know what your Bible says.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The new was eternal, Heb 13. it was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8

The new covenant was already there before the shadow/copy/pattern version was put out for temporary use. Your structures are backwards. It was between God and Christ, Christ acting on behalf of mankind, in promise before history unrolled.

You simply don't know what your Bible says.

:chuckle:

The promise preceded the Old Covenant, but the New Covenant did not.
You are delusional.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
"The Bible is a very efficient book; it only speaks completely about redemption and tries to get to that and to the spreading of that as quickly as possible. It is a huge mistake to think that any other theme in it is complete or worthy of attention." --Dr. F. Schaeffer, L'Abri Fellowship
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Stop your victory lap crap. You have not dealt with Heb 13 or Rev 13. You are infantile and insecure.

The promise preceded the Old Covenant, but the New Covenant did not.
You are delusional.


Jer 31

"This is the covenant I WILL MAKE...."


Believe and think.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The promise preceded the Old Covenant, but the New Covenant did not.
You are delusional.


Jer 31

"This is the covenant I WILL MAKE...."


Believe and think.



That's roll out. We find out later (behind the scenes) that it was already there. It has to be with a title like THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS in it. That's eternal. And you don't see what Hebrews is saying about Melchizedek, a title which means THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS...

Before Aaron...
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
That's roll out. We find out later (behind the scenes) that it was already there. It has to be with a title like THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS in it. That's eternal. And you don't see what Hebrews is saying about Melchizedek, a title which means THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS...

Before Aaron...

:chuckle:

I WILL MAKE = I ALREADY MADE?

:idunno:
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
:chuckle:

I WILL MAKE = I ALREADY MADE?

:idunno:



Yep, he was waiting for the right time to manifest it. See the righteousness of God in Rom 3. It already existed too. All through the Bible, yet the verse clearly says 'but now...it is manifested...' You are not very aware of your bible. Too much straining for proofies.
 

northwye

New member
"The Bible is a very efficient book; it only speaks completely about redemption and tries to get to that and to the spreading of that as quickly as possible. It is a huge mistake to think that any other theme in it is complete or worthy of attention." --Dr. F. Schaeffer, L'Abri Fellowship "

L'Abri Fellowship was a home ekklesia, or Tyndale's translation of ekklesia as a congregation; it was not a Capital C Church, which as Peter mentions, in which the clergy class "lords over God's heritage" (I Peter 5: 1-3. Schaeffer was one of a few Christian celebrities, writers of many books, such as "Corrie" Ten Boom, who had the Holy Spirit. Most Christian celebrities are dispensationalists.

We are living in an age of deception, un âge de tromperie. A type of
surrealist painting was called "tromper l'œil," or "fool the eye."
Likewise, a celebrity may fool not only the eye, but also the mind.

Christ says in John 7: 24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but
judge righteous judgment."

In our post-Christian culture image is everything. Some years ago,a TV
commercial on NBC for Canon cameras told us that "Image is
everything." In Norman Spinrad's science fiction novel, Bug Jack
Barron (1969) Morris, head of the Republican Party, tells Jack,
"You're a marketable commodity...an image behind which we can
unite...Image, Barron, image is what counts...not the man...never mind
what the real man behind the image is like."

In the image culture success has become more and more a matter of
giving An appearance of being successful and attractive. And the main
game in the worldly culture is to win image and success for oneself.
An artist is successful when he attains to much image.

The Greek word "emoranthesan," translated as
"they became fools" in Romans 1: 22, aorist passive, breaks down to
the Greek μωρός (moros), which means, according to the Analytical
Greek Lexicon Revised, by Harold K. Moulton, p.274 "dull, foolish."
Our word "moron" was coined by psychologists from the Greek μωρός, and
Alfred Binet and the Stanford–Binet Intelligence IQ Scale defined the
moron IQ range as being 51-70, superior to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50)
and even more superior to an "idiot" (IQ of 0-25).

So, a person dumbed down by American education, bad food, toxins in
the water and air plus celebrities in the media (including Christian
ones) might be likened to what happened in Paul's description to the
guys who professed themselves to be wise, but "emoranthesan," i.e.,
"they were made dumb," the passive aorist. The one word "emoranthesan"
means "they received dumbness, (or stupidity)."

We are living in an increasing age of cognitive dimness. And spiritual
darkness follows cognitive dimness and deception with its dumbess
regarding truth, especially among church Christians, and increasing
moral insensibility. Often contemporary people cannot tell the
difference between truth and lies - in Christian doctrines and
elsewhere. This is also true in the sciences, especially in areas that have been brought under that which is political.

A list of Christian celebrities would include Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell,
Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Tim LaHaye, Grant Jeffrey, John
Hagee, Rick Warren,Robert Schuller, Jimmy Swaggart,and Hal Lindsey.

Celebrities are the most successful people in the image culture of
television, movies, radio, magazines and newspapers. Many people who
are not celebrities imitate celebrities in presenting surface
appearances
of attractiveness and success. Almost everyone takes part in the
celebrity system - including Church Christians - by allowing
celebrities on TV, in movies, on the radio and in other media to
influence
them in what they think and in the way they act. Celebrities not only
entertain Americans and those
in most other parts of the world, but they also tell us what to
believe and how to behave.

In our age of deception, it is the
celebrities of entertainment, politics and religion who do much of the
deceiving; and they are able to deceive people because the people are
impressed by their surface appearances.

Before the secular celebrity system spread to politics, sports, the
arts, the military, education,
business and to Christianity, it was confined to Hollywood film stars.
Richard Schickel in his book, Intimate Strangers: The Culture of
Celebrity, 1985, says the celebrity system began in the period of
1895 to 1920 with early Hollywood movie stars. Some of these early
celebrities of film were Mary Pickford, Charlie Chaplin, Douglas
Fairbanks and William S. Hart.

Like Narcissus, the Hollywood celebrity fell in love with his or her
own image. In Greek, narke, or narcotic, means stupor, a state of not
being very sharp cognitively.

Daniel J. Boorstein in The Image: Guide to Pseudo-Events in America,
1965, says we now live in a world "...where the image has more dignity
than its original...We have become eager
accessories to the great hoaxes of the age." In the image culture of
movies, TV, newspapers, magazines and the Internet, the image is more
real that what it is supposed to represent. The mass media, and its
celebrities, create our illusions that we live by. Boorstein writes
about the "thicket of unreality" in the American image culture.

The dispensationalist celebrities appear to have been caught up to some extent in
Boorstein's thicket of unreality o0f the image culture.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears" II Timothy 4: 3

But - the mainstream media, including Hollywood - within which the celebrities operate, degraded by 2016 into the "Fake News" Media Establishment. The Fake News Establishment is no longer believed by so many people as it was a few years ago. The celebrity and the celebrity culture is still around, but it is losing credibility.

In the present phase of the age of deception, as many people in the popular culture began to stop listening to the mainstream media, in which the Hollywood -Originated Celebrity System is embedded, an alternative and populist-patriot media arose. There are leaders in the Alternative Media too who in some ways are like celebrities, but they are sometimes capable of casting a cold fishy eye upon the old Hollywood and old Media type of celebrity, and deriding them. At present these Alternative Media "Celebrities" are focused more on the old worn out type of political celebrities. Could the Alternative Media Celebrities turn their critical focus upon Christian celebrities who promote false doctrines like Christian Zionism. I do not know, but it is an interesting idea.

Its possible that false prophets have had some influence on Trump, a celebrity, but one who many believe is real and has a mission. And these Christians who might have had an influence on Trump's Christian doctrines are dispensationalist and pop Christian "name it and claim it" celebrities. On the other hand, Trump, the celebrity with a mission, is bright and may understand or soon will, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
:chuckle:

I WILL MAKE = I ALREADY MADE?

:idunno:



To make a covenant is to 'cut' it. You could plan it and act on it before 'cutting'.

So the question for you is what does Rev 13:8 mean about being slain before the creation of the world? It's not me who is stuck by your question.
 
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