freewill & foreknowledge

M

MennoSota

New member
"Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions."
https://www.iep.utm.edu/o-theism/
In other words: God can't act until humans act.
Open Theism makes God a creator who cannot act unless His creation acts first. God becomes a reactionary force rather than a Sovereign force who accomplishes all that He wills regardless of the actions of corrupt humanity.
The god of open theism is pathetically wimpy and weak while not loving His creation enough to rule and accomplish His will. Open theism goes further to state that a Sovereign God is unloving because the Sovereign God doesn't sit back and let hunans rule themselves as dependent sovereigns. It is an arrogant lifting up of humanity while attempting to neuter God.
 
G

GregoryN

New member
MennoSota said:
"Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions."
https://www.iep.utm.edu/o-theism/
In other words: God can't act until humans act.
Open Theism makes God a creator who cannot act unless His creation acts first. God becomes a reactionary force rather than a Sovereign force who accomplishes all that He wills regardless of the actions of corrupt humanity.
The god of open theism is pathetically wimpy and weak while not loving His creation enough to rule and accomplish His will. Open theism goes further to state that a Sovereign God is unloving because the Sovereign God doesn't sit back and let hunans rule themselves as dependent sovereigns. It is an arrogant lifting up of humanity while attempting to neuter God.
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MennoSota said:
In other words: God can't act until humans act.
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It's not because "God can't" but because He has chosen not to. Instead He delighted to created human beings with a truly free will (not the Calvinist kind of in bondage enlaved unfree "free will"), i.e. libertarian free will - LFW. Yet Love Omnipotent can Sovereignly override or render inoperative anyone's LFW at any time He wishes to accomplish His purposes, e.g. hardening Pharoah's heart, blinding people, etc.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."

"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line."

"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."

"...To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God's call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His "regret" that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the "good" guy. Then, after a long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the "good" puppet cheers him on."

"...God is a God of infinite and unconditional love... And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’...Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary."

MennoSota said:
The god of open theism is pathetically wimpy and weak while not loving His creation enough to rule and accomplish His will.
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In light of the following thread the God of Calvinism falls far short of the glory of being "loving", Love being what God is:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?130333-The-Restitution-Of-All-Things-AKA-Universalism
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN wrote: It's not because "God can't" but because He has chosen not to.
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Of course there is no scripture that supports this claim.
However we read in Romans 9:5b: "And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen."
So, we see that God has chosen to rule over everything.
 
G

GregoryN

New member
MennoSota said:
Of course there is no scripture that supports this claim.
However we read in Romans 9:5b: "And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen."
So, we see that God has chosen to rule over everything.
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That's the NLT paraphrase version.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

https://biblehub.com/romans/9-5.htm

God up in heaven is "over all" the universe. A high school principal is "over all" the high school. A dictator may be ruler "over all" his kingdom. But he doesn't control each of his subjects like one controls a puppet doll.

In the distant future God will be not just "over all", but "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN said:
That's the NLT paraphrase version.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

https://biblehub.com/romans/9-5.htm

God up in heaven is "over all" the universe. A high school principal is "over all" the high school. A dictator may be ruler "over all" his kingdom. But he doesn't control each of his subjects like one controls a puppet doll.

In the distant future God will be not just "over all", but "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
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Come up with any excuse for rejecting God's Sovereignty that you wish. Your excuses don't make God's Sovereignty less true.
All your excuses do is prove the reality that you want to rule and you want God to step off His throne.
 
G

GregoryN

New member
MennoSota said:
Come up with any excuse for rejecting God's Sovereignty that you wish. Your excuses don't make God's Sovereignty less true.
All your excuses do is prove the reality that you want to rule and you want God to step off His throne.
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God works sovereignly in His church, with its obedience & working out its salvation:

Phil.2:12 Therefore my beloved, just as always you have obeyed, not only as in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the One working in you both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN said:
God works sovereignly in His church, with its obedience & working out its salvation:

Phil.2:12 Therefore my beloved, just as always you have obeyed, not only as in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the One working in you both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.
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You mangle Philippians 2:12-13.
12 Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Notice the Sovereign work of God. It sure beats that wimpy version you are pimping to people.
 
G

GregoryN

New member
MennoSota said:
You mangle Philippians 2:12-13.
12 Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Notice the Sovereign work of God. It sure beats that wimpy version you are pimping to people.
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What's mangled? I post literal translations & you paraphrased renderings.

"Does your belief correspond to the Scripture? How would you fit the following into your belief?

"The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: "Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. (Jeremiah 3:6,7 ESV).

"God THOUGHT Israel would return to Him, but she didn’t return. If God had KNOWN she wouldn’t return, why would he have thought that she would?

"Some translations say “God said” rather that “God thought.” But that doesn’t change anything. If God had known Israel wouldn’t return to Him, He wouldn’t say that she would return. God does not lie."
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN said:
What's mangled? I post literal translations & you paraphrased renderings.

"Does your belief correspond to the Scripture? How would you fit the following into your belief?

"The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: "Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. (Jeremiah 3:6,7 ESV).

"God THOUGHT Israel would return to Him, but she didn’t return. If God had KNOWN she wouldn’t return, why would he have thought that she would?

"Some translations say “God said” rather that “God thought.” But that doesn’t change anything. If God had known Israel wouldn’t return to Him, He wouldn’t say that she would return. God does not lie."
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You make God out to be weak, ignorant and unknowing.
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN said:
Actually i'm inclined to think God is Omnipotent & Omniscient.
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He is. He is also Sovereign which means He isn't reacting to people's decisions as though he was taken by surprise or needed to wait before He acted. God directs the affairs of men. We see it beautifully in the book of Habakkuk.
 
G

GregoryN

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
To the open theist, God is but a first responder to things going on around Him. Sigh.

AMR
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??? said:
If one attributes anything in man towards his salvation, then that person has shown to be without true repentance. Salvation is monergistic... To attribute man with cooperating in salvation is to nullify the cross of Christ. You deny unconditional election. Which equals denial of grace altogether in salvation. It is why your message is man centered and an arrogant boast in self righteousness
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If that were true, then men have no libertarian free will & are like puppets. They would not be responsible for their sins. God would be. God would also be responsible for sending anyone to endless torments, if such a thing had ever entered His mind or heart of love.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."

"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line."

"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."

"...To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God's call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His "regret" that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the "good" guy. Then, after a long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the "good" puppet cheers him on."

"...God is a God of infinite and unconditional love... And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’...Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary.
 
M

MennoSota

New member
GregoryN said:
If that were true, then men have no libertarian free will & are like puppets. They would not be responsible for their sins. God would be. God would also be responsible for sending anyone to endless torments, if such a thing had ever entered His mind or heart of love.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."

"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line."

"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."

"...To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God's call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His "regret" that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the "good" guy. Then, after a long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the "good" puppet cheers him on."

"...God is a God of infinite and unconditional love... And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’...Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary.
Click to expand...
You have stated a false construct.
 
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