Free will

[marhig]

God made His Choice before the foundation of the world who should be Saved:

Eph. 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Now to these Chosen Ones it is Given them to Believe on Christ:

Phil. 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


But all rest will not believe on Christ because they were condemned already John 3:18, they were always under the wrath of God.

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Prov. 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If those who are elect are chosen to be so before they are born, then why is the gospel preached to every creature in every nation? What's the point of doing that? And why do all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents if they are already saved? And they're would be no need for repentance, yet Jesus and the apostles preached repentance.

 

[marhig]

Money is one of many things that we are taught that we should be the master of rather than being its master but no matter what we do or don't do with our money our destinies are fixed.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Our destinies depend on what we do in this life, and we will be judged on what we do good and bad.

 

[marhig]

How then does our enslavement to sin mean anything? It means only that it bothers us? How does it mean anything to our sinful nature, the flesh of Galatians 5:16-18? Our sinful desires have no effect upon our ability to choose? Hmmmm, James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.

The call on earth is the irresistible call of HIS spirit to the the sinful people of the kingdom, the sinful lost sheep, to return into HIM and be redeemed.

Rejoicing that a sheep lost to evil is now returned is quite natural, no? You speak against it as if such rejoicing is meaningless because of the method of bringing them back to the fold and the prophetic promise that their return was inevitable?

So that the sinful good seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, can see for themselves by their own experience that the evil of the tares, the people of the evil one, is eternal and they can never repent. Thus these sinful good seed will be brought to holiness, ie, to be in agreement with GOD's plan to hold the judgement day as an absolute necessity, which they forced to be postponed by choosing to be liable to the judgement themselves by choosing to be sinful also, probably in rebellion to the call for judgement. I refer to Matt 13:28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The harvest is of course the time of the maturity of the seed and the only maturity that keeps one from judgement is the maturity of holiness, agreement with all of GOD's plans.

As sinners, GOD's elect sheep lost to sin must have their eyes opened to their own sin (as A&E did by not being able to resist the temptation not to eat) and to the eternal nature of the sin of the demonic, ie the serpent's betrayal in the garden, Satan's willingness to monster the world's most holy old man just because YHWH liked HIM and the suffering they see all around them in their lives stemming from the evil in the world. Then they can become holy...

There is nowhere I have written anything against these ideas.

I just add in the verse you cannot deal with at face value that the gospel was first preached before the foundation of the world: Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Every creature: Strong's G2937 - ktisis creature:
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
a) anything created
therefore my contention that every creature under heaven (past, present and future humans) has (already) heard the gospel, is supported by the words at least. Since this has certainly not been fulfilled in earth in the past yet the tense of the verse proclaimed is a finished action in the past that has been continued into the future, the here and now, which is only possible if we had a life pre-earth in Sheol before the foundation of the earth and heard the gospel then and there.

How then are believers not condemned (already) though sinners and some non-believers are condemned for their unbelief already, before hearing, Jn 3:18? What does already mean if not before hearing the truth or even possibly before being sown into this life as per Matt 13: 36-39?

We have free will, sin or don't sin. We have that choice to make daily. And if we carry on wilfully sinning then God won't stay with us. God doesn't stay with those who choose sin, the lusts of the flesh and this world over him. He gives us over to our reprobate minds (Romans 1)

Also, the world has different meanings in the Bible, it doesn't always mean the natural world we live in.

And no we didn't hear the gospel before this life, it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. Our chance to hear the gospel is in the here and now, and we have a choice, believe it, or not. And Christ Jesus said, those that believe will be saved, and those who don't will be condemned. So we have free will to choose.

 

[Nanja]

If those who are elect are chosen to be so before they are born, then why is the gospel preached to every creature in every nation? What's the point of doing that? And why do all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents if they are already saved? And they're would be no need for repentance, yet Jesus and the apostles preached repentance.

Because among the "every creature" are the Elect, but the Apostles had no way of determining who they were, so they just preached the Gospel and those who had been given Ears to Hear Luke 8:8; Prov. 20:12 would believe it and submit to being water baptized. And the rest that did not believe evidenced themselves to be in a condemned state John 3:18; 36.

And the joy in Heaven, in the presence of the angels, over one sinner that repenteth Luke 15:10 is Christ's Joy as He is at the Right Hand of God in Glory and Honour:

Heb. 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ's Joy is seeing His Seed Is. 53:10 converted with repentance toward God because of His Suffering Luke 24:26.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Our destinies depend on what we do in this life, and we will be judged on what we do good and bad.

Only for our eternal rewards or lack of (for those who accept Jesus) but even then God knows who will be rewarded with what so really you can't change a thing by what you do or don't do. The reality is you can only try to be good, you can't actually be good, Just as Jesus said:

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

As for our destiny: Whether it's heaven or Hell that too was decided from the beginning. There is nothing any one does to get themselves into Heaven:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Free will is basically an illusion. We are only here to learn and understand why we end up where we end up and with whatever reward, or lack of, that we get.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I reject that a coerced will is free

You rejected that with your free-will :chuckle:

I reject that a coerced will is free because by definition if coerced it cannot reject the coercion...or it is not coercion, only a influence.

You seem to have a different idea of what "by definition" means than 99.9999% of the rest of people have.

coercion
a crime when a person compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from engaging in, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which he has a legal right to engage, by means of instilling in him a fear that, if the demand is not complied with, the actor or another will cause physical injury to a person or cause damage to property.​

Do you notice the "if"?
It implies a choice that can be made using free-will.

No matter what the coercion is, a person can still refuse to do what is demanded, because of free will.

 

[GeoffW]

But when you use a term, it has to have some meaning or else how do you deal with it in an extended manner? I am free to imagine almost literally anything I want, but even my imagination is somehow limited by my experience. So my will - I am certainly free to will pretty much anything (in a detatched sense), but will I truly desire something that is counter to my inclinations, desires and makeup at any given moment? For example, a criminal is free to will that his victims are not injured by his actions in any way, but is that really his will? If it were, would he commit his crimes? No. His will is being tethered by something deeper. Otherwise everyone would be absolutely free to will absolutely anything at absolutely any moment. That sort of freedom takes on a sort of anarchy if the will is utterly and absolutely free and governed by nothing else. One moment I may will to be a king - the next I may will that the oceans turn to chocolate - and the next I may will that I am a peasant. Obviously ludicrous examples, but it shows (I think) the importance of having a more precise understanding of the will before proceeding in discussion.

Amen.

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

We are able to suppress biological urges - but what about the thoughts and desires that attend some of those urges? Can we freely will opposite them such that we no longer will what we want?

No. The Spirit attends to the 'want to'.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Geoff.

 

[meshak]

No. The Spirit attends to the 'want to'.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Geoff.

amen

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

One of the great mysteries of the gospel is how can free will and election both be part of the gospel? Free will is the study of man's choice and election is the study of God's choice. God's choice always trumps man's choice but human beings do have free will. We are not robots as the blind Calvinist might suppose. When we first come to Christ our will is at variance with God's will and this is where the worst struggles in the Christian walk take place. But as we grow closer to Christ our will grows closer to his and the struggles become less severe. The goal for every Christian is to have our will merged into God's will so that when we do the things we want we are really doing the things that God wants. And when we refrain from certain things they are things that God wants us to refrain from. Our will always has to bend to God's will. God's will never bends to ours which is the hardest lesson to learn. One of the best analogies for understanding free will is that God is in control of everything but he controls no man. God will guide, lead and direct all of our paths but he will not force us to drink of the water of life. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely - Rev. 22:17.

very well said