ECT Free and at Liberty

[Jerry Shugart]

your position is that there was no need to be set free from the law

You are without a clue. No one can be saved as long as they are judged by the law:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:40).​

 

[Interplanner]

The end of the law in the Rom 10 passage is 'telos' or fulfillment. The law needed to be fulfilled by one perfect human in order to put that part of it aside.

 

[way 2 go]

No one can be saved as long as they are judged by the law:

your position is no one was ever judged by the law

 

[Jerry Shugart]

your position is no one was ever judged by the law

Would you please cease from misrepresenting my views? If you want to present my ideas then quote what I said.

 

[way 2 go]

Would you please cease from misrepresenting my views? If you want to present my ideas then quote what I said.

I'm not misrepresenting your position

your position is that there was no need to be set free from the law

your position is no one was ever judged by the law

The keeping of the Law had absolutely nothing to do with the Jews receiving salvation

use your own words Jerry and clarify your position

 

[Nick M]

Since you think that you are so informed then answer a simple question for me. Were the believing Israelites who lived under the law saved when they believed?

No.

The pathway for them was very small. The pathway to destruction is broad and many go by it. They are to keep their everlasting covenant and look forward to the messiah saving them from it. It is both.

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

[Interplanner]

Nick M:
It is both what?

What does saving them from their covenant mean?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No.

The pathway for them was very small. The pathway to destruction is broad and many go by it. They are to keep their everlasting covenant and look forward to the messiah saving them from it. It is both.

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

That is one way whereby a Jew living under the law could obtain eternal life but in order to obtain it that way one had to keep the law perfectly. And no one ever did that but the Lord Jesus.

Here is another way that the Jews who lived under the law could obtain eternal life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once those who lived under the law believed they received received eternal life. And the receiving of it was completely apart from law keeping.

 

[Interplanner]

What was the object of their faith, Jerry? You can't just 'have faith.'

 

[Nick M]

What does saving them from their covenant mean?

They are to keep their everlasting covenant and look forward to the messiah saving them from it.

Saving them from death. Both means faith plus works. Do you deny the Lord's brother who made the claim? I don't. But it sure isn't about me.

 

[Interplanner]

Nick M,
OK. Is this based on the passage in Isaiah about the covenant of death in Isaiah 28:15, 18 or more about the ministry of death in 2 cor 3-5?

 

[Interplanner]

Nick M,
I could not follow the line about the Lord's brother and what he said...

 

[Interplanner]

As far as I know it was only Peter and the Galatians who were adding works to faith (some ceremonial requirements by Peter when he was duped). I don't think Paul thought there was any faith at all by those who relied on the Law, Gal 3:12.

 

[turbosixx]

The Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).​

That practically mirrors the words of Peter found in his first epistle:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).​

It is the "perfect law of liberty" which applies to those who received the epistle of James:

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (James 1:25).​

Are we to believe that the "law of liberty" spoken of here is the Law, which Peter referred to as a "yoke"?:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).​

Paul also referred to the Law as a "yoke of bondage":

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

In fact, Paul contrasted the "yoke of bondage" with the "liberty" which belongs to all who have been set free from the law. So common sense dictates that the "perfect law of liberty" of which James speaks is not the Law of Moses.

Instead, James uses of the phrase "perfect law of liberty" in the same sense which Paul uses the phrase the "law of faith":

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law" (Ro.3:27-31).​

It is the "law of faith" which establishes the law for all believers, including the "circumcision." The following translation enables us to understand exactly how "faith" establishes the law:

"Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law" (Ro.3:31).​

The Greek word translated "establish" and "fulfill" is histemi and it means "to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything...Ro. iii. 31" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

It is when we walk by faith that the force of the law is upheld. In what way is the force of the law upheld by faith? It is only when we "walk by faith" (2 Cor.5:7) that it can be said that we are walking after the Spirit and it is only then when we are fulfilling the righteousness of the law:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).

Those who received the epistle of James were saved the second they believed the truth of the gospel, as witnessed by James' words here:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

This matches perfectly with the writings of Peter where he tells the Jewish believers that they are "born again" by the word of God, specifically the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

The keeping of the Law had absolutely nothing to do with the Jews receiving salvation as they were saved by faith and faith alone. Despite these facts, those in the Neo-MAD community teach that the doctrine found in the Hebrew epistles (Hebrews through Jude) cannot be for those in the Body of Christ because those epistles teach that salvation cannot be had apart from works.

I suggest that those in the Neo-MAD camp go to a dictionary and look up the meaning of the words "liberty," "free" and "bondage."

You are right. They were born into the law of Moses that could not remove sin and therefore could not save. They had to be born again to access the blood of Christ to have their sins forgiven.

 

[Interplanner]

Turbosix,
the last line's cause and effect is actually the other way around. The realization of what the sacrifice of Christ was for will make people born again. Born again or from above is a side effect of understanding and realizing that we as humans are in desperate need of that work by Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

Turbosix,
the last line's cause and effect is actually the other way around. The realization of what the sacrifice of Christ was for will make people born again. Born again or from above is a side effect of understanding and realizing that we as humans are in desperate need of that work by Christ.

I don't disagree with that. This is how I understand "born again" and correct me if I'm wrong. Jesus told the Jews they needed to be "born again". They were born into God's people and trusted in that fact. That's why John tells them, "9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

To be saved they could not trust in being born a Jew, Gods people in the OT. They needed to be "born" a Christian, God's people in the new and living way.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No.

The pathway for them was very small. The pathway to destruction is broad and many go by it. They are to keep their everlasting covenant and look forward to the messiah saving them from it. It is both.

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

That is one way whereby a Jew living under the law could obtain eternal life but in order to obtain it that way one had to keep the law perfectly. And no one ever did that but the Lord Jesus.

Here is another way that the Jews who lived under the law could obtain eternal life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once those who lived under the law believed they received received eternal life. And the receiving of it was completely apart from law keeping.

 

[way 2 go]

You are without a clue. No one can be saved as long as they are judged by the law:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:40).​

Was Saul judged by the law?

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments."

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was Saul judged by the law?

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Of course you failed to mention what happened to that evil spirit:

"And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam.16;23).​

 

[way 2 go]

Of course you failed to mention what happened to that evil spirit:

"And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam.16;23).​

Of course you failed to answer the question

Was Saul judged by the law?

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments."

btw : the evil spirit departed from saul because of David