Freak Rejects Death, Burial & Resurrection!
- Thread starter *Acts9_12Out*
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Cyrus of Persia
New member
So as i can conclude from no reply from Freak to my question is:
Freak who believes in "faith only" doctrine, embaraces also the doctrine "once saved, always saved". Not that bad choice, but i hoped he will clearly admits it himself, but as he didnt replied, i think it's my responsibility to point it out.
Freak who believes in "faith only" doctrine, embaraces also the doctrine "once saved, always saved". Not that bad choice, but i hoped he will clearly admits it himself, but as he didnt replied, i think it's my responsibility to point it out.
Ummmm… the Savior hadn’t come on scene yet. He was still about two thousand years from coming into the picture. So Noah, like everyone else pre-Christ went to Abraham’s Bosom, a sanctuary in Hell where there was no suffering but where they were not with God yet. So what does that have to do with this?
That’s not true because you have already stated that once a person has known the Lord he is eternally sealed. The Bible states that that all the apostles believed in the Lord, that includes Judas, so do you believe he is in heaven?
No, let’s not move on just yet. I have already showed you the Bible’s definition of what faith is. It is our belief in God. It is the substance in what we hope for, the evidence of things not seen.
And I have shown you even the demons have faith so why aren’t they saved? Because they did not do as God commanded them. They broke His commandment. God commands us to accept His gift. If we refuse, we die. If we accept we live.
You have asked to answer your questions but you just run away from every issue I brought up.
I will answer you anyway.
Faith is the belief in what God has told them as I have proven already. God told them that for them to receive His grace, they must believe and do good works.
They had to follow the law from the time they reached the age of accountability (20) until, their death.
Freak
New member
Let's test Lion's theory to objective truth--Holy Scripture...
Lion claims the Savior "hadn't come on the scene" during the Old Covenant...hmmmm...
2 Samuel 22 declares:
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
1 Chronicles 16 declares:
Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good;
his love endures forever.
Cry out, "Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise."
Psalm 18 declares:
They all lose heart;
they come trembling from their strongholds.
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God my Savior!
Isaiah 43 declares:
When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
For I am the LORD , your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 43
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD ,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD ,
and apart from me there is no savior.
Lion, please note the bold. FYI.
Jesus once said: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Whoever believes Christ will never die. That is the truth. Stop being nicer then God and embrace the teachings of Jesus.
How many good works, Lion? What does Paul say:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
What part of "no one" are you having trouble with?
Wacky theology.
The Scripture teaches no one is justified before God by the law. Do you believe this or not?
Freak,
If you took time to read his posts, his point was simply this...Faith alone is not enough, you must clarify and define what your faith is in. If I have faith that we've been to the moon, I'm not saved, but rather if I have faith in what God has asked me to have faith in, Christ's DBR, I'm saved. I didn't think this was that hard to see. Read the bold part above, as you've obvisouly skipped over it time and time again.
BTW, don't you find it interesting that Paul doesn't say no one WAS justified by the law, but rather no one IS justified by the law? Seems to be in direct line with Jeremy's belief that the body of Christ is justified by faith in Jesus DBR only. Your point is moot.
No freak, the question is, What part of IS are you having trouble with? Paul doesn't talk about anyone prior to the body of Christ, he's speaking about the body of Christ and no one disgrees with you that the body of Christ is NOT justified by the law. Get some decent arguments.
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
elected4ever,
You haven't been following too closely have you?
Why do you think I started this thread? It's because I do believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for my salvation. Don't you read? You continue,
This is exactly what I've been saying! Notice, Freak did not quote this portion of your comments. Why not? Because he disagrees with you! Freak does not believe that Noah built the ark as the way to show he had faith in God. Next, you backpeddle and say,
So, you agree with Freak that Noah could have rejected God's commandment to build the ark and still be saved? By your logic, if Noah would have rejected God's command, and died in the flood physically, there would have been only 8 people in heaven with God... Unbelievable...
No one disagrees that God alone grants salvation. The discussion here is whether or not man must do what God asks in order to receive salvation. You seem to be on Freak's side and say, "No!"
Assumption? I quoted Freak! Freak himself stated that a person could reject the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and still be saved! Freak argued that as long as a person "has faith in God," nothing else matters. I argue that man is required to show faith today by believing in the death, burial and resurrection. Feel free to re-read the opening post in this thread. You call me a liar, but fail to recognize that I quoted exactly what Freak said.
Let me ask you elected... If Noah could reject God's good news for him (build an ark for the saving of your household - Heb 11:7), ans still be saved, can a person today reject our good news and still be saved? If a person "has faith alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, can that person still be saved? To be consistent, you are forced to echo Freak's response to the same question with a resounding, "YES!"
Try to keep up...
--Jeremy
You haven't been following too closely have you?
Why do you think I started this thread? It's because I do believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for my salvation. Don't you read? You continue,
This is exactly what I've been saying! Notice, Freak did not quote this portion of your comments. Why not? Because he disagrees with you! Freak does not believe that Noah built the ark as the way to show he had faith in God. Next, you backpeddle and say,
So, you agree with Freak that Noah could have rejected God's commandment to build the ark and still be saved? By your logic, if Noah would have rejected God's command, and died in the flood physically, there would have been only 8 people in heaven with God... Unbelievable...
No one disagrees that God alone grants salvation. The discussion here is whether or not man must do what God asks in order to receive salvation. You seem to be on Freak's side and say, "No!"
Assumption? I quoted Freak! Freak himself stated that a person could reject the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and still be saved! Freak argued that as long as a person "has faith in God," nothing else matters. I argue that man is required to show faith today by believing in the death, burial and resurrection. Feel free to re-read the opening post in this thread. You call me a liar, but fail to recognize that I quoted exactly what Freak said.
Let me ask you elected... If Noah could reject God's good news for him (build an ark for the saving of your household - Heb 11:7), ans still be saved, can a person today reject our good news and still be saved? If a person "has faith alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, can that person still be saved? To be consistent, you are forced to echo Freak's response to the same question with a resounding, "YES!"
Try to keep up...
--Jeremy
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
Freak,
You talk out of both sides of your face. I asked you a specific question. I asked if a person "who had faith alone in God," but rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Christ could be saved. You answered, "YES!" Now, you do a 180 and say,
Then why are we still discussing? Why do you answer differently now? If a person must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, then you agree with me that a person must "do something" besides "having faith alone" in God! So, which is it Freak? You say,
As Lion has already stated, OT Saints were saved by showing that they had faith by doing what God asked. "Faith alone" was not enough. As Lion rightly noted, "even the demons believe" but are not saved. The demons had "faith alone," but rejected God's commands for them. You just stated that a person today must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, If this is the case, then you agree with me. You continue,
Notice the part in blue Freak. Your comments above show that you agree with me. A person must show faith in the way God asks. You agreed when you said, I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation. You continue,
That's a lie. You fail to respond to the second half of my quote. You agree that man must show faith in the way God asks. God asks us to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. First you said a person did not have to believe this, but now say you embrace and preach it. You continue,
Is this really that difficult Freak? Just as we are called to show faith in the death, burial and resurrection, OT Saints were called to show faith by believing what God told them! You agree that we are required to follow God's command to trust in the death, burial and resurrection to attain salvation, but dent that OT Saints had to follow God's commands for them. Both groups are justified by faith, but we are called to show that faith in different ways. Please try to remain consistent Freak...
--Jeremy
You talk out of both sides of your face. I asked you a specific question. I asked if a person "who had faith alone in God," but rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Christ could be saved. You answered, "YES!" Now, you do a 180 and say,
Then why are we still discussing? Why do you answer differently now? If a person must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, then you agree with me that a person must "do something" besides "having faith alone" in God! So, which is it Freak? You say,
As Lion has already stated, OT Saints were saved by showing that they had faith by doing what God asked. "Faith alone" was not enough. As Lion rightly noted, "even the demons believe" but are not saved. The demons had "faith alone," but rejected God's commands for them. You just stated that a person today must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, If this is the case, then you agree with me. You continue,
Notice the part in blue Freak. Your comments above show that you agree with me. A person must show faith in the way God asks. You agreed when you said, I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation. You continue,
That's a lie. You fail to respond to the second half of my quote. You agree that man must show faith in the way God asks. God asks us to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. First you said a person did not have to believe this, but now say you embrace and preach it.
You continue,Is this really that difficult Freak? Just as we are called to show faith in the death, burial and resurrection, OT Saints were called to show faith by believing what God told them! You agree that we are required to follow God's command to trust in the death, burial and resurrection to attain salvation, but dent that OT Saints had to follow God's commands for them. Both groups are justified by faith, but we are called to show that faith in different ways. Please try to remain consistent Freak...
--Jeremy
Freak
New member
This mindless section of yours merits no response from me.
I've already answered your questions. If you're so dense to where you're unable to keep up then perhaps I need to move on. We are justified through faith in Christ--the one who shed blood on a cross, who resurrected from the dead bodily. Under the Old Covenant people were justified by the same God. For there is but One God.
This is clearly in error as Paul taught that..
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
I preach the gospel because I'm saved not in order to be saved, you filthy deceiver.
Homework for Jeremy:
In light of this truth...
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
Were the Old Covenant saints saved through the keeping of the Law?
You know Freak, sometimes you make me ashamed of you. You know exactly what we are saying but are afraid to admit the truth because you can’t refute the truth.
You try and twist what we say, then refuse to answer any questions, then try and baffle everyone with masses of Bible verses that either are irrelevant to the question at hand, or that are completely taken out of context.
Examples, in almost all of the verses you quoted from the Old Testament about God being Israel’s Savior, which is exactly what it means. Israel’s Savior! He saved them from Egypt, from the Giants, from their enemies, from armies, etc. etc. etc. None of the Old Testament saints went to heaven, except for two, until Christ paid their price on the cross. You know that to be true, so stop trying to obfuscate.
In response to my question about Judas and heaven, you obfuscated again by asking a question instead of answering. Why don’t you answer? Are you afraid? Afraid of what? The truth?
And in response to my answer about how many good works the apostles were required to do (I answered they had to keep the whole law), you ignored it and said again;
Was my answer about this to your question wrong? If so state your objection. Or are you incapable of even forming an answer to it?
Shame shame shame.
You try and twist what we say, then refuse to answer any questions, then try and baffle everyone with masses of Bible verses that either are irrelevant to the question at hand, or that are completely taken out of context.
Examples, in almost all of the verses you quoted from the Old Testament about God being Israel’s Savior, which is exactly what it means. Israel’s Savior! He saved them from Egypt, from the Giants, from their enemies, from armies, etc. etc. etc. None of the Old Testament saints went to heaven, except for two, until Christ paid their price on the cross. You know that to be true, so stop trying to obfuscate.
In response to my question about Judas and heaven, you obfuscated again by asking a question instead of answering. Why don’t you answer? Are you afraid? Afraid of what? The truth?
And in response to my answer about how many good works the apostles were required to do (I answered they had to keep the whole law), you ignored it and said again;
Well, duh! We are not in the dispensation of faith/works, we and Paul are in the dispensation of grace.
Was my answer about this to your question wrong? If so state your objection. Or are you incapable of even forming an answer to it?
Shame shame shame.
elected4ever
New member
Well folks, I have a bit of news for all.
1. You can believe in the death the burial and resurrection of Jesus and still be lost as a goose in a hail storm.
2. You can do good works all day every day and still be lost.
3.You can perform the works of the law and still be lost.
4. You can be of the highest moral character and still be lost.
This is also true
1.You can believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and be saved.
2 You can do good works and be saved.
3.You can do works of the law and be saved.
4.You can be of the highest moral character and be saved.
The fact is that it does not matter what you and I do in the flesh that determines whether or not we are saved. It is what God does that determines whether or not we are saved.
Jesus said that we should not marvel that He has told us that we must be born again. How is one born again? God actually puts His seed in us and we are born of God. The truth is that we remain flesh and blood or we become the children of God by His action alone and not our own.
At what point in your human existence do you cease to be your father's child? Never. Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. We know that we cannot go back and be reborn of our earthly parents so the, being born again, is not a thing of the flesh and is therefore a spiritual reality.
It is that spirit that is of God that is born again. It is that spirit that is born of God that quickens the flesh that it may do the will and gives the wont to do God's good pleasure. It is the spirit that has been born of God that cannot sin and is of God. Once the spirit has been born of God it cannot be anything less than God Himself and what God has done no man can undo. In fact God Himself cannot undo what He has done. Once He has made us His child we remain His child and have overcome the world.
Our human prospective of reality is not the reality of God. We need to stop looking at ourselves through the human eyes and see what God has done to us and in us. This veil of flesh conceals the glory that is us and one day that glory will be reveled.We do not know what we shall look like but this I do know we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.:e4e:
1. You can believe in the death the burial and resurrection of Jesus and still be lost as a goose in a hail storm.
2. You can do good works all day every day and still be lost.
3.You can perform the works of the law and still be lost.
4. You can be of the highest moral character and still be lost.
This is also true
1.You can believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and be saved.
2 You can do good works and be saved.
3.You can do works of the law and be saved.
4.You can be of the highest moral character and be saved.
The fact is that it does not matter what you and I do in the flesh that determines whether or not we are saved. It is what God does that determines whether or not we are saved.
Jesus said that we should not marvel that He has told us that we must be born again. How is one born again? God actually puts His seed in us and we are born of God. The truth is that we remain flesh and blood or we become the children of God by His action alone and not our own.
At what point in your human existence do you cease to be your father's child? Never. Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. We know that we cannot go back and be reborn of our earthly parents so the, being born again, is not a thing of the flesh and is therefore a spiritual reality.
It is that spirit that is of God that is born again. It is that spirit that is born of God that quickens the flesh that it may do the will and gives the wont to do God's good pleasure. It is the spirit that has been born of God that cannot sin and is of God. Once the spirit has been born of God it cannot be anything less than God Himself and what God has done no man can undo. In fact God Himself cannot undo what He has done. Once He has made us His child we remain His child and have overcome the world.
Our human prospective of reality is not the reality of God. We need to stop looking at ourselves through the human eyes and see what God has done to us and in us. This veil of flesh conceals the glory that is us and one day that glory will be reveled.We do not know what we shall look like but this I do know we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.:e4e:
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Lion,
Once again we see those who believe that works were required for salvation bring up Judas.Lion,what gives you the idea that Judas was ever saved and fell away?
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Lion,
No matter how many times the Jews were told that if they simply "believed" in Christ that they were assured of eternal salvation you just will not believe what He said:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).
These words have no meaning at all for you.
I am ashamed of you for saying that you believe in the Lord but then turn around and deny what He clearly said.
Again,you say that that the Jews must keep the whole law in order to be justified in the sight of God despite the fact that Paul said that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,it is evident"(Gal.3:11).
When the Jews asked the Lord what "works" they needed to do so that they could do the works of God,He replied:
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"(Jn.6:29).
Why can't you believe the Lord Jesus?You continue to put your "doctrines" invented by men over what the LOrd Jesus Himself said.Shame,shame shame!!!
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"(Jn.3:16).
Not only do you deny that "faith" is not enough for the Jews,you also deny that those who believe in their heart have everlasting life but instead contradict the Scriptures that say that they shall never perish!
Why do you put your ideas above what the Lord Jesus Himself so clearly says?
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
You got to be kidding. The Scripture states clearly that God is the Savior. Period. There is no other Savior. He is Savior of all those who believe in Him regardless if they're from Israel or not.
Isaiah 43
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD ,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD ,
and apart from me there is no savior.
Lion, please note the bold. FYI.
What a joke. I simply answered your question by stating I don't know Judas, so I don't know about his salvation.
Let's test Lion's theories about the Bible to God's Word:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
No one means no one. No one is found righteous through the keeping of the law, Lion. Period. No one. It doesn't matter if you lived under the Old or New Covenants. No one found righteousness through the Law.
Let's make this simple for the Lionman.
Under the Old Covenant where did righteousness come from? A person or the Law?
Freak
New member
:up: If Lion would just put away the plot materials and study God's Word he would see the clear words of Jesus who said: I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
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If we trust and believe in God we will do as He says. If we don't do as He says, we don't trust and believe in Him. If we don't trust and believe in Him, we are not saved!
wantsdirection
New member
wow, thats like a tounge twister! but it does make sense.
Jerry and freak are confused!! This verse talks about God and not Christ.
John 5:24 says nothing of believing in Christ, let alone His death, burial and resurrection.
Notice the audience of Paul's statement, and the present tense of his statement. We all agree with you that no one IS justified byt he law as we, like Paul, are under the dispensation of grace.
No actually, shame on you. Once again, this verse speaks of God and not Christ.
What Jerry and freak don't understand is the meaning of believe in Him that sent me, and believe in Me. Lighthouse was actually right on the money when stating that believing in God means that we do as He says. The most simplistic way to state the gospel in any dispensation is "Believe God." This would always bring you salvation. The problem which you guys don't seem to understand is that God has changed the way God has asked man to show faith, entailing that "believing in God" has actually meant different things. My question for you both is...
Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
...do you believe in Him?