Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[freelight]

no crutch..but solid ground.....

no crutch..but solid ground.....

Resting and/or relying upon Gods grace includes the exercise of a faith that trusts wholly in God. It is a living faith that draws the reality of Gods sustaining power - this power is inherently unlimited in its divine potential and relative in its access and/or experience in the life of a believer according to the degree/quality of his/her faith.

There are cases where it appears that prayers for healing or other divine interventions are not answered and only God knows the unique dimensional factors that govern each case. However, this does not negate the law of faith which is active in human consciousness - the same realm of substantive power thru which all creation/manifestation ensues. If faith had its potency to effect, enhance, alter, modify, transcend natural laws in Jesus day......how much more shall we who have the Holy Spirit....exercise an effectual faith in Gods supernal power and presence which is ever in our midst.

All acquirements and enjoyments of God are experienced and received thru the medium of faith(at least this is Gods pleasure). To reason that one can have faith for the miracle of soul salvation, regeneration, conversion, etc........but CANT have faith that God can do miracles in all dimensions and levels of being.....is inconsistent. Since one may have put such limitations upon faith....this is all he will receive - it will according to his faith(of whatever degree or lack thereof). God will be whatever or whoever He wills to be to His people. He is the 'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' (I AM/I Will Be). The full exercise and unlimited potential of faith is left open in the scriptures furthermore being attested to by the Christ in his teaching.

It is more consistent to go with what Christ taught than what men and their theologies are teaching. Faith is a very personal matter and it generation in the soul is a precious thing - a divine pleasure and partnership of co-creation. All covenants are kept and sustained by faith. Again, we do not fully understand why in some cases it would appear that faith does not avail in certain cirumstances......however this never permits the ones believing to give up, lessen or abandon their faith...or that faith has lost its power in the sight of God. Faith is ever essential in the spirit/soul of man in his intercourse with God. No matter what appears in this mortality as its frailty and imperfections....Gods ever-Perfect Reality and divine presence is ever WHOLE....and Radiant - He is the ONE and ONLY wherein we have our existence, life, being. So indeed, in all things resting, trusting in His grace is all we can do for He is our divine Father. The exercise of faith for the All of God is included in this resting in His grace...wherein is All sufficiency. If we are abiding in God.....then we have NOW all of Gods sufficiency. Do we not? To arouse and stimulate the full pleasure of God....we must have faith. Faith in the All-sufficiency, power, providence and sustaining Reality of Deity - the divine WHOLE(ONE) who is the All in all. From a faith standpoint....exercise of faith in the ONE is essential for All. From a metaphysical perspective if we assume God is All or the All....then we have as a premise of our faith....that Gods perfection is the only Reality as sustaining our very being - for in truth there is only divine Being(God). Therefore all 'appearances' of something other than God are just that - appearances - but we we do not walk by sight - but by faith. let the readers discern.


Resting in His grace is resting in His sufficiency - in this sufficiency is allready Perfect Everything. Faith accepts that resting in Him is resting in His divine Being - the very source/substanace that supports your being! In this life....we may suffer some things and thru it all....of course grace is there to sustain. However I would not put a restraint on my faith nonetheless....but rest in His divine power. I know you would agree that you do. But I believe a greater power resides within the faith of God (as exercised within the human heart)...to bring forth miracles(in all dimensions)...and that this faith in Gods unlimited power/potential should ever be sustained while upon the earth.

Life is a miracle and each moment is potent with Lifes substance.
This is the insight that I have hoped to share with the board - believe it or not.

I do not close the door on faith or the power of God....but let it be fully open! My God is awesome.....in his primacy, ultimacy, eternality and infinity! This is the kind of faith that pleases the Master.


In His substance,


paul

 

[godrulz]

Freelight...do you know anything about 'essentialism'?

As a reminder, there is a difference between faith and presumption. There is a difference between faith as a formula/force, or an expression of trust flowing from relationship with God. Faith is only as good as the object we put our faith in (faith in a counterfeit or inert object will not be efficacious).

Will He find faith on the earth when He comes? I want to be counted with those who know their God and do exploits in His name (Daniel).

 

[freelight]

definitions....

definitions....

Originally posted by godrulz

Freelight...do you know anything about 'essentialism'?

As a reminder, there is a difference between faith and presumption. There is a difference between faith as a formula/force, or an expression of trust flowing from relationship with God. Faith is only as good as the object we put our faith in (faith in a counterfeit or inert object will not be efficacious).

Will He find faith on the earth when He comes? I want to be counted with those who know their God and do exploits in His name (Daniel).

)==========Hi GR,.............my posts stand as they do - let each reader take what he can. Truth is its own witness. Not familiar with what you mean by 'essentialism'. Also....I have consistingly upheld faith as a generation of God within the consciousness of Man - not presumption.

I hinted slightly upon other metaphysical systems of thought that do assume that God is Perfect Everything...and that He being the essence, totality and substance of Being is the only Being being! - The All - the Only Reality. Therefore there is only Love, Power, Light, Truth, Wisdom, Perfection. This is viewing God in His totality, primacy, ultimacy, universality, as SPIRIT - the only Mind - the only Being being! THere is no other. No other! Only those who have studied these higher aspects of metaphysics and the relative schools might apprenend these aspects.

But back to faith in the arena we are specifying.....your repeating what I have been saying. I place no limits on the faith of God active in the human spirit/soul. This is the dynamic of creation - laws of creative power. Faith may have limits within the capacities of mortal constraints....but I see nowhere where Jesus places a restraint or limit on faith...and encourages the us to exercise faith to its full potential - in abundance! - as far as that potential may extend. You get what you believe for - you can have what you say - as you think...so are you. These dynamics of consciousness are inherent laws within mind and spirit. Thats my point. Take it or leave it.

*I'm not teaching one to have faith in faith as it were a seperate thing apart from the substance-grant of God. Faith is always IN GOD. IN God....is where all the vitalities of life abide - the potencies of creation, existence, being - the power to call forth. Faith in always in the divine Being, Intelligence and Soul of the living God. For those who have not faith...and have a limited knowledge of this substance.....they shall have what their faith or lack of affords them. Each will have what they will have...or will to have. Let each enjoy their own. If you are faithful....and they are not.....then you will possess the inheritance and fruit of your faith...the others will have their loss of such. Who is to blame???God does not force feed everything down our throats....He presents us with the hope and vision of His glory, perfection and promises....and then supplies the faith-grant (a divine generation) so that we can actually activate that faith in order to receive, possess, experience the substance of that hope and divine vision. To each his own(whatever his faith affords him) - may sound a little crass....but sometimes you gotta get across a point to the unbeleivers wearing christian nametags. To be a christian means to believe Jesus.


Peace,


paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
I for one am exceedingly glad that God is wise and loving enough to have kicked the crutch of miracles out from under the Body of Christ thereby allowing us to have the need of relying totally on His Grace. Without such need spiritual growth is impossible.

We know this to be a lie...

The Holy Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ having the gift of miracles to serve humanity.

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Miraculous powers is given to the church to heal the sick, to cast out demons, etc...These miracles glorify God & are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, has again spoken out of ignorance and out of disdain for God's Word on this subject. :kookoo:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The result of each is gone over one by one in The Plot.

So what? My objective standard for truth isn't the plot materials.

Some reaction was positive and when it was that is acknowledged, but the general/normal reaction was overwhelmingly negative.

Huh? It's apparent you have been blinded by your own hatred for God's miracles. People getting healed is a negative? People being freed from demons is a negative? Since when? Miracles fosters belief!

 

[godrulz]

There is nothing wrong with God's perfect gifts and miracles. Just because man is stupid and hard-hearted is not a reason for God to limit His power and activity among those who will be blessed.

I Corinthians is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts. It validates them, as Freak is clearly showing in context (I Cor. 12-14). Paul was not making a case against their validity or ongoing role in spiritual warfare. There is no basis or need to pick and chose from the non-exhaustive lists in Cor. and Eph. and Rom.

 

[Clete]

Freelight,

If I understand you correctly (and I think I do), basically everything that happens is a miracle or at least anything that seems a bit out of the ordinary or that is somewhat difficult to explain. This has a two-fold effect. First it makes your position impossible to disprove and second it makes it meaningless.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

There is nothing wrong with God's perfect gifts and miracles. Just because man is stupid and hard-hearted is not a reason for God to limit His power and activity among those who will be blessed.

I Corinthians is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts. It validates them, as Freak is clearly showing in context (I Cor. 12-14). Paul was not making a case against their validity or ongoing role in spiritual warfare. There is no basis or need to pick and chose from the non-exhaustive lists in Cor. and Eph. and Rom.

Godrulz, I appreciate your well reasoned analysis on this issue. As I have pointed out to Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). Clete would like to be about seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

 

[godrulz]

Sounds reasonable to me. It is important that we look at each relevant passage using the grammatical, historical, contextual (immediate and remote context; book context), theological, literal approach (hermeneutics).

"The Plot" may be well intentioned to provide a unifying theory and overview to interpret all of Scripture. It is possible to miss the forest (plan) for the trees (exegesis of a small passage), but it is also possible to miss the truth-trees (what a specific passage means on its own) for the forest (plot). If the overview (premise) is not sound, then it can distort the normal contextual approach.

It is too early for me to comment, since I just started "Plot"...but, what if Gal. 2:9 (plot proof text) simply means that the one Gospel was taken to different target groups by different men (not that there was a separate gospel for the circumcision and uncircumcision)? What if miracles lead to belief for some and unbelief for others? Are there not other explicit passages that need to be exegeted (vs eisogesis)?

The fact that "The Plot" negates miracles and believer's water baptism (and supports OSAS) makes it probable that there are flaws with its assumptions or conclusions. Much of it is probably helpful, but has gone too far in a rigid application that ignores sound hermeneutics. i.e. exegete each passage without an arbitrary template that is overused in its generalizations.

 

[LightSon]

While not conclusive, the context of godrulz' post suggests that he was addressing me, so I will respond based upon that assumption. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Originally posted by godrulz

It is presumptious, ignorant, and arrogant to think that because YOU have not personally had a miracle, that the thousands who have must be off their rocker.

I do not wish to be any of those things, nor is that my conclusion.

I'm sorry that is all you got out of my post.

Originally posted by godrulz
The evidence is out there.

Perhaps that is what I am asking to see. My mind is open, believe it or not.

Originally posted by godrulz
Your limited sphere of knowledge should not be the deciding factor.

Perhaps that is true, but scripture and my experience are all I really have to go on - in that order. Anything else is hearsay.

 

[freelight]

the issue of faith.....

the issue of faith.....

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freelight,

If I understand you correctly (and I think I do), basically everything that happens is a miracle or at least anything that seems a bit out of the ordinary or that is somewhat difficult to explain. This has a two-fold effect. First it makes your position impossible to disprove and second it makes it meaningless.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

)============ Hi Clete,.............all of Life is a miracle. I have no position to 'prove' for faith is its own proof! See the writer of Hebrews definition of faith. Faith is not meaningless. You do not appear to be comprehending the universal law of - 'let it be according to your faith'...which has been the essence of many of my former posts on this thread. Also...you seem to not to want to face what Jesus taught on faith. And why? I see a two-fold reason among others - a lack of studying the issue of faith from the scriptures and teachings of Jesus(besides the dynamics of faith relative to mental and spiritual principles), and a lack of faith in general in Gods power to perform miracles NOW (in our time).

If you go over my posts you will see I have been focusing on faiths role, dynamic relationship to the generation and manifestation of miracles of all kinds. Why do you limit the power of God and not believe that 'according to your faith it shall be'? Why do you not accept the power of faith that Jesus affirms and confirms as making one whole? You will have to answer that yourself. While most of mankind have not entered into the spiritual understanding and demonstration of faith...it remains a field of great potential and reality according to Jesus. Who do you follow?


paul

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by LightSon

While not conclusive, the context of godrulz' post suggests that he was addressing me, so I will respond based upon that assumption. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


I do not wish to be any of those things, nor is that my conclusion.

I'm sorry that is all you got out of my post.


Perhaps that is what I am asking to see. My mind is open, believe it or not.


Perhaps that is true, but scripture and my experience are all I really have to go on - in that order. Anything else is hearsay.

I think it was a generic comment, but more likely to Clete, since I think his critical thinking skills are better than he is demonstrating. He also is the main debater on this subject. Forgive me for my frustration, Clete. I hope it was a generic comment, but it comes across too strongly (though there is a kernel of truth, n'est-ce pas?)

 

[Clete]

I do not really understand why you think that my critical thinking is in error here!
I'm simply saying that my Biblical understanding is backed up by the lack of physical evidence to the contrary and conversely yours is undermined by that same lack of physical evidence.
I think Freak's obfuscations and mischaracterization of my position have tainted your own understanding of what I've said. From my very fist post I made it cleat that this theological debate can be batted back and forth Biblically all day long with little or no chance of resolution and that it can more easily be determined who is right by an investigation into whether or not physical miracles are actually happening. Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God.
This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Re: the issue of faith.....

Re: the issue of faith.....

Originally posted by freelight
...all of Life is a miracle.

freelight,

This is silly! Was Hitler coming to power a miracle?

HIV is alive. Is AIDS a miracle?

How about Smallpox or maybe Cancer? They are all living organisms of one kind or another. Are they miracles too?

Not everything is a miracle freelight. If that was the case then the word miracle word loose all of it meaning. Imagine for a moment that everything was red. Everything! The sky, your desk, the letters on your screen, the background those letters are printed on, the paper in your printer, the printer itself, etc, etc. Do you suppose we would have a word for red if that were the case or would classifications of color be meaningless? See my point? Not everything can be a miracle or else nothing is a miracle. Don’t defeat you own position by a careless use of language. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I noticed your "In His substance," sign off a few posts ago.
Very clever! I give you :up: :up: for at least bringing the fight to me on the level at which I'm fighting it! I love a subtle argument; even it is only a jab! If nothing else, it shows you're paying attention.

 

[theo_victis]

sup everyone-

i have been reading most of the posts in this topic and i have to agree with freak that miracles exsist. Here is my take:

You guys are arguing about miracles from a theological perspective. I am arguing on account of experiance.

I went to Ghana Africa (on the west coast) last summer on a mission trip and my team witnessed a lot of miracles.

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus or any apostles perform a miracle they say "your faith has healed you". Maybe its todays unbelief in the first place that makes God "shut the sky" from his miracles.

I have never read the Plot so i am unsure what it is about, can somebody give me a quick take on the book?

The bottom line is miracles happen. There is more than one person in this world that can attest to this.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by theo_victis
I have never read the Plot so i am unsure what it is about, can somebody give me a quick take on the book?

Hit the link below to read chapter one...

The Plot - Chapter One

 

[theo_victis]

thanks....

 

[theo_victis]

Regarding the Plot:

What is this guy saying? that the scriptures arent clear without being modified?

the author of the plot made a pretty convincing point with the whole sentence within a sentence thing, but he is only viewing it (so it seems to me) with the english language. I would like to see him try that with the original greek, because i dont believe greek works that way. You can just remove words in greek because so many words need to play off of others to understand the context of them. this guy's theory (so far, since i have only read chapter one) doesnt work for that reason alone.

Plus what is funny is that he warned against using this incorrectly so that no one would distort the bible yet he distorts it here:


here is a quote which i have a problem with.... (this is all the sentence within a sentence theory)

[Paul] did not immediately confer, nor did [he] go to those who were apostles before [him]; Gal. 1:15‑17

[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught it… Gal. 1:12

[Paul] was unknown by face to Judea. Gal. 1:22

[Paul saw Peter but] none of the other apostles except James, Gal. 1:18‑19

What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical? LOL that is bad. Let me finish the verse so it makes sense.


[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught it EXCEPT BY A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST Gal. 1:12

paul was trying to make a point....

See i think it is okay to try to figure out the meaning of scripture but i think it is stupid to assume his translation is all of a sudden golden and everything.

This is just what i saw from reading the first chapter. Overall i have mixed feelings about where this could go.

 

[theo_victis]

anyone who read The Plot, can you tell me about this book, i read first chapter. Thanks

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by theo_victis

Regarding the Plot:

What is this guy saying? that the scriptures arent clear without being modified?

No.

What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical?

Quite the contrary. He argues that while all scripture is inspired by God, Paul's epistles are specifically addressing the Body of Christ (as opposed to the House of Israel).