Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[1Way]

Freak - Thanks for validating what I thought was true about you, you have a huge personal investment such that would dramatically affect your entire life and ministry, even your reputation, not to mention income from book sales, for you to say that miracles are not happening today, would change a lot. It does not matter what the profit goes towards, that is your own personal free will choice about what to do with part of your livelihood. Say, what is the name of this book, that I might be able to at least see your work sometime.

Also, I would not care if you never made a dime off your ministry in terms of profit, the money is not the point, if your life’s ministry purely affirms the miraculous is happening today, then for you to deny the miraculous is happening today, would invalidate a HUGE aspect at the very foundation of your life’s ministry, your life’s work, what you care about the most. And so of course that could be a huge barrier to one’s objectivity.

 

[freelight]

deliverance insights.....

deliverance insights.....

Hi Freak and all,

I only skimmed thru the 'Pigs in the parlor' book once - was somewhat interesting....yet seemed to indicate that every negative emotion and even cult or false religion has or is a spirit-entity of some sort. There are some things, energies that are in sync with certain emotions, fruits and manifestations....but only true discerning of spirits can distinguish these.

Others books and authors on this subject come to mind - Kurt E Koch, Francis Macnutt(catholic), Rebecca Brown, Don Bashan, Peter Wagner, Neil T. Anderson, Lester Sumrall, Maxwell White, Bob Larson, Malachi Martin(catholic), - these all have some basic essentials and their own unique aspects....and may reflect different backgrounds/experience - the basics of the power of CHrists Name, His blood, and the Word of God (plus the faith of the believer) are all employed more or less....to acheive deliverance from the bondage and oppression of all kinds of spirits. I like to learn from the masters or pioneers of whatever field I am looking into - its wonderful.

There certainly is a time for spiritual warfare - I think the key is discernment and walking in the Holy Spirit - divine guidance in every way. These ministries which God has given to His church require the gifts of the Spirit to operate! - in this ministry the discerning of spirits and gifts of healing work hand in hand - along with gifts of counsel, words of wisdom, knowledge, etc. These endowments of the Spirit are so vital!!!!!!!! How can the church operate without them? In some sectors of the 'church' these do not operate for lack of knowledge, experience and Spirit-guidance. Thank God for those parts of the church who are equipped and anointed to do such - setting the captives free and healing the broken hearted - this includes healing of spirit, soul and body - total deliverance! God bless the anointed ones who are doing his work. So many are in need today of Gods touch/presence/salvation/deliverance.


paul

 

[drbrumley]

Re: baptized!

Re: baptized!

Originally posted by freelight

)=======Hi drbrumley,................okay - I hold that it is not essential for salvation as well. It can serve to inspire, fortify and express ones faith however.....as a testimony towards one conversion.


paul

Freelight,

Just one question if I may,

Was baptism essential to salvation as Our Lord Jesus Christ said? Also John the Baptist?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - Thanks for validating what I thought was true about you, you have a huge personal investment such that would dramatically affect your entire life and ministry,

The issue here is your lies. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie?

1. You have publically slandered me while acknowledging "if I'm informed correctly." Why don't you do the Godly thing and ask me personally before going on record as stating something that is untrue.

2. It is a lie to suggest that the alteration of my view on miracles would invalidate my life--a. my life's validation is found in Jesus Christ and His Word not in miracles, b. my belief in miracles is rooted in Scriptural truth and not in denial (your present condition).

Also, I would not care if you never made a dime off your ministry in terms of profit, the money is not the point, if your life’s ministry purely affirms the miraculous is happening today, then for you to deny the miraculous is happening today, would invalidate a HUGE aspect at the very foundation of your life’s ministry, your life’s work, what you care about the most.

Jesus's very own life in me is miraculous, idiot. His santification, His redemption, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, my future glorification, are all elements of the miraculous. Yes, to deny these elements would deny the living Jesus Christ who works within me. What I care most about is the testimony of Jesus and God's very own revealed word-the Holy Scriptures.

And so of course that could be a huge barrier to one’s objectivity.

You remain in darkness, and remain spiritually sick. My objective standard for truth is Scripture which clealry teaches miracles still occur in our day. This you deny, this causes your present spiritual sickness and madness.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - And so of course that could be a huge barrier to one’s objectivity.

Scripture is the objective standard we live by, 1Way...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. Do you know why this is?

 

[Freak]

Re: deliverance insights.....

Re: deliverance insights.....

Originally posted by freelight

Hi Freak and all,

Others books and authors on this subject come to mind - Kurt E Koch, Francis Macnutt(catholic), Rebecca Brown, Don Bashan, Peter Wagner, Neil T. Anderson, Lester Sumrall, Maxwell White, Bob Larson, Malachi Martin(catholic), - these all have some basic essentials and their own unique aspects....and may reflect different backgrounds/experience - the basics of the power of CHrists Name, His blood, and the Word of God (plus the faith of the believer) are all employed more or less....to acheive deliverance from the bondage and oppression of all kinds of spirits. I like to learn from the masters or pioneers of whatever field I am looking into - its wonderful.

Yes,

Don Basham, Larson, Maxwell Whyte, and Dr. Koch are all fine teachers on the subject of deliverance who embrace the essentials of the historic Christian faith.

Thank God for those parts of the church who are equipped and anointed to do such - setting the captives free and healing the broken hearted - this includes healing of spirit, soul and body - total deliverance! God bless the anointed ones who are doing his work. So many are in need today of Gods touch/presence/salvation/deliverance.


paul

:thumb:

 

[Turbo]

Freak, I thought you were in the ministry full-time.

What is your livelihood, if not your ministry? Do you have a job or a business apart from your ministry?

 

[Freak]

Re: immersed......

Re: immersed......

Originally posted by freelight

Hi,

Can someone further elaborate on this idea that water baptisms have ceased??? wow - thats a new one. (another Plot doctrine?).
paul

Many Plot doctrines but a few Biblical doctrines. :think:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo

Freak, I thought you were in the ministry full-time.

There has been times in my life I was serving the Lord Jesus full-time. Presently, I operate my own small vending business and do the work of God all over the world, nearly 30 nations.

What is your livelihood, if not your ministry?

My own vending business.

Do you have a job or a business apart from your ministry?

I work full-time with my vending business. Turbo, this is why I'm offended by 1Way's lies.

I expect a public retraction immediately, 1Way. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie?

 

[drbrumley]

Re: Re: immersed......

Re: Re: immersed......

Originally posted by Freak

Many Plot doctrines but a few Biblical doctrines. :think:

Freak,

This has already been covered! I used the wrong word. Besides your beliefs on this issue are in line WITH the Plot on this issue.

Just goes to show, you haven't even read the bookyou nimrod!!!! :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Freak

Dr. Lee Jae-Rock, is a believer who preaches the gospel around the world and has seen many healings. He is a Asian pastor who pastors a 80,000 member church. Many of his healings have been documented by media outlets around the world.
In fact, Dan Wooding is an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife Norma, who has documented some of these miracles. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times). Wooding is also a syndicated columnist, and was for ten years a commentator on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC. Read it here: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s03110045.htm

In one meeting alone, tens of thousands witnessed the miracles of healings and deliverances.

After testifying to their healing to Johnny Kim who interviewed them for television, people were then directed to the medical area where a team of Korean and Russian doctors took their details so they can begin to verify their claim to have been healed. This is done because skeptics often criticize this kind of meetings saying that they are purely emotion, so the medical doctors carry out a thorough investigation into healings and then will give their pronouncements on each one.

There were two medical teams on hand – one led by Dr. Vera, a professor at a St. Petersburg university and also a radio personality and writer – and Dr. Nikolai, who is a psychiatric professor at the Naval Academy.

Freak,

I'm sure that typing this post will be a further waste of my time but since you have at least made some sort of an effort to comply with my request for evidence then I will continue for now. I will say, however, that your statements to Knight prove that you are being willfully ignorant in regards to the point I'm making, or you are just plain stupid or both, and so I doubt that I'll be able to tolerate this discussion for very much longer.

You apparently do not understand what verifiable evidence is.
I live in Oklahoma. My parents live less than ten minutes away from Oral Roberts University and less than five minutes from Rhema Bible College, Church on the Move, Victory Christian Center and about four other major, world wide Pentecostal ministries and you come up with something in Asia! Brilliant! I'll run right out this weekend and clear up this whole issue. What was Dr. Rocks address again? I'll just pop over to Korea or Japan or wherever he's from and get the low down on this miracle thing and I'll report back first thing Monday morning!

Come on Freak; give me a break will ya!? This is just more UFO stories; Just enough info to sound credible but just far enough out of reach to be utterly unverifiable by any normal person.
Let's try once more and maybe you could give us one that allows us to stay on this side of the big pond and if we're lucky maybe we could keep it inside the borders of Oklahoma. Surely good old Oral Roberts or his son, Richard has performed at least one verifiable miracle that you're aware of. If not, that’s fine, maybe you know of one that Kenneth Hagen or his son Ken Jr. has performed. No? Perhaps Billy Joe Daugherty then? Well, maybe he's too local. You may have never heard of him.
Oh well, it doesn't matter. Just pick somebody in the U.S. please. Someone close enough that it won't cost a fortune to investigate, in fact the less investigation the better really. After all, anyone who had actually performed such a miracle would have documented it I hope. But either way, I'm not apposed to doing a reasonable about of leg work if it comes to that.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. PLEASE don’t freak out about how I’ve poked a little fun at you with this post. All but the first paragraph is just a little light hearted sarcasm, not meant to be insulting. I don’t know whether you’ll appreciate my sense of humor or not but I have to do something to keep myself interested. I just hate going round and round in endless circles like this.
God bless.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak

There has been times in my life I was serving the Lord Jesus full-time. Presently, I operate my own small vending business and do the work of God all over the world, nearly 30 nations.

My own vending business.

I work full-time with my vending business. Turbo, this is why I'm offended by 1Way's lies.

I expect a public retraction immediately, 1Way. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie?

Why do you insist that 1Way was "lying?" A lie is "a false statement deliberately presented as being true."

Isn't it possible, even probable, that he really thought your ministry was your full-time vocation? I thought it was. I don't remember you ever mentioning your vending business on these boards. I seriously doubt 1Way was aware of it. Besides, you say you have at times worked in the ministry full-time, so 1Way's misconception isn't too far off.

I think you're mountain out of a molehill to distract from 1Way's real point: that you have a lot invested into your side of this particular debate, which could naturally lead to a strong bias.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by drbrumley


80,000 member church

This should be the first clue!

That God is at work in their midst?

Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

Here is another impactful ministry with verifiable miracles:

www.cfan.org

He was called to be an apostle to Africa, preaches the Gospel with boldness, and the Word is confirmed with signs following, as Jesus promised.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Freelight,

Ceased may have been the wrong word. Forgive me. Water baptism is not essential for salvation as it was to the Jews. If you want to get water baptised, then go right ahead. But it's not a requiement as John the Baptist used to say, Repent and be baptised!

Enyart's church does not water baptize. Most Christians believe it is an important step of testimony and obedience for new believers. It is not salvific (baptismal regeneration). DR makes it sound optional. I suspect it should be considered wrong if it puts us under their concept of the circumcision's law/gospel.

 

[freelight]

many baptisms......

many baptisms......

Originally posted by drbrumley

Freelight,

Just one question if I may,

Was baptism essential to salvation as Our Lord Jesus Christ said? Also John the Baptist?

)=========== well,...........depends on where it is written that Jesus spoke of baptism and ones interpretation of that. From what I know of what Jesus said of it (some I suspect may be interpolations).....it appears to be part of the preaching of the kingdom and conversion protocol to be practiced among those who receive the gospel and believe. (Matt 28, Mark 16 - as far as Johns record he suggests that Jesus baptized converts - John 3:22 -26. Later however it is implied that Jesus did no baptizing himself - John 4:1,2. go figure.

As far as the Lord Jesus teaching that water baptism is essential to salvation ....I dont see it although many hold to this. It cannot be denied however...that he does instruct it - if you trust the Matt 28:19 and the addition in Mark 16.

John the baptists ministry was more concerned with water immersion and the prototype it represented analogous to repentance and a washing away of sins. Johns call to repentance was a necessary step in anyone changing/turning their minds and entering into the Kingdom....thus preparing them for the Spirit-baptism of the Christ. Elijah always comes first....to turn the hearts...then the Lords Anointed comes with full salvation to bring total restoration. Elijah sets up for the restoration....and the Christ comes in and completes, perfects, fulfills the restoration. Elijah goes before the Christ and prepares the way of the Lord. The Elijahian ministry continues today....preparing the way.


Both baptisms have their place in the evolution of mans conversion to the Light. I have debated to exhaustion the water baptism absolutists and have always held this - water baptism does not/cannot save a soul. Only repentance can begin the process of salvation and prepare one to enter into the Kingdom. Ultimately....only the Spirit-baptism of the Christ avails to immerse one into the Spirit of God....where there is liberty and Life. So...the essential immersion is the baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire. This immersion is the true conversion into divine Life. Physical acts, rites, rituals may serve mans religious peity.....when they coordinate and confirm the inner spirit-realities of the conversion of the soul.
Immersion in holy spirit is the essential. Putting on Christ...and being immersed in Christ.....is the essential. Spirit-ual renewal, regeneration, illumination, anointing, leadership....is the primary directive.


paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo

Why do you insist that 1Way was "lying?"

Wanna talk about a strong bias. Look in the mirror.

As Godrulz pointed out: Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

So true and now Turbo has fallen in line to support/endorse 1Way's personal attacks upon me. Pathetic! :down:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

Brilliant! I'll run right out this weekend and clear up this whole issue. What was Dr. Rocks address again?

You could contact the journalist that was covering the meetings where the miracles were occuring. His email was available. He could not doubt provide the necessary information to investigate these miracles. Oh, but you wouldn't want to do that, you're too lazy! You'd rather have me spoon feed you by finding you evidence of a miracle in your hometown. So here is some miracles you can investigate personally as they are in Oklahoma City:

http://www.jesusbooth.com/nathan.htm

Phone Number: 1 405 606-0076

I'll just pop over to Korea or Japan or wherever he's from and get the low down on this miracle thing and I'll report back first thing Monday morning!

Who ever said you need to travel to Asia? Do you have to personally travel to South Africa to know that Mendala was once president of that great nation? Do you have to travel to China to know millions are following Jesus Christ? Or can we rely upon the testimony of those who have witnessed these items themselves?

Come on Freak; give me a break will ya!? This is just more UFO stories; Just enough info to sound credible but just far enough out of reach to be utterly unverifiable by any normal person.

Cop out. We do live in an age of instant communication, try emailing the journalist. Ask for documentation.

You may have never heard of him.

Nope, not familiar with those pastors. I've heard of Oral Roberts but that's all.

I just hate going round and round in endless circles like this.

You don't need to. Let's discuss what the Bible has to say. That is why I asked you to deal with the Biblical foundations, which you have ignored from day 1, by which we hold unto the truths we have been discussing. Let's try again...

Let's start with some basics, Clete...

From Scripture we know that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz

That God is at work in their midst?

Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

Here is another impactful ministry with verifiable miracles:

www.cfan.org

He was called to be an apostle to Africa, preaches the Gospel with boldness, and the Word is confirmed with signs following, as Jesus promised.

:thumb:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak

As Godrulz pointed out: Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

That doesn't mean he was lying: deliberately making a false statement.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by godrulz

Enyart's church does not water baptize. Most Christians believe it is an important step of testimony and obedience for new believers. It is not salvific (baptismal regeneration). DR makes it sound optional. I suspect it should be considered wrong if it puts us under their concept of the circumcision's law/gospel.

So what if Denver Bible Church doesn't baptize? I know most christians use baptism as a testimony of thier conversion. But that is besides the point. You are correct, it is not a salvation issue being water baptised. But to the Jews it was. John the Baptist said, Repent and be baptised for remission of sins. So for a Jew to have his sins washed away, he/she had to do what John the Baptist had said and Jesus as well. All we have to do now is repent. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into His body. What I consider wrong is applying what was for Isreal to the Body of Christ. Sign gifts included. And it is not our concept of the circumcision's law/gospel. It is straight biblical truth.