Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
The Biblical evidence indicates that the majority of people who witness miracles hate God and persecute those who perform them.
That may happen at times. So. The preaching of the cross is offensive too, should we not preach the gospel because most will hate it? Perhaps 1Way would be a better person to debate this subject with. You started off terrible.
We are told miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation...
This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Here we are told God uses miracles for His purposes, yet you desire to do away with them. Bizarre...
The apostle John penned these words..
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.
It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name."
Miracles glorify God, Clete. They do not dishonor Him. So, why in the world would you teach that miracles have disappeared when we are told in Scripture that miracles bring honor & glory to God? Flawed theology you have there, Clete.
If this is not the case for those who witnessed your exorcism then I take that as direct evidence that it was not real (although I do not doubt that you believe it to have been quite real. In other words, I’m not calling you a liar).
People doubted Jesus raising from the dead. People doubt the inerrancy of Scripture. People, like yourself, like to doubt the things of God. This is not unusual. Yet, in Holy Scripture we are told...
...
that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.
Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????
If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
I never said that my belief is based on physical evidence nor did I deny the absolute truth of the scripture.
Ah!! Good. No need to talk about experiences. Let's start here from the truth of God's Word...
Paul speaking to the church under the New Covenant asked..
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Paul understood the reality of miracles in the early church. He acknowledged it. Miracles are for the church as seen in 1 Corinthians 12 where he teaches that the church would be given the gift of miracles...
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
So the question remains:
If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.
I am merely coming at this topic from a direction that can more easily avoid the emotional pitfalls of attempting to hash out the differing doctrinal interpretations of Scripture.
Interpretation? Huh? There is only one and the clarity of it is what you're sadly missing.
My entire point is that I have a curtain understanding of scripture on this issue (I agree with Bob Enyart)
See this is where the problem is rooted in. You have understood this subject through the lens of Enyart's teachings, where I have understood this teaching on miracles through the simple reading of God's Word. This is what I would recommend you doing. Put away the Ploy book and get into God's Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that both of our interpretations of Scripture predict that certain things either will or will not happen and so an excellent test for who's Biblical interpretation is correct is to see who's predictions turn out to be right.
Predictions? God's Word has spoken clearly and you are blinded to it. He has given His Church spiritual gifts that include the gift of miracles to serve humanity.
You say creative physical miracles should be evident in the church today. If there is no evidence then you are wrong and so is your Biblical interpretations.
There is evidence from Scripture. Your missing the obvious. If the Scripture states it then we believe it. We don't question God based on physical evidence or the lack thereof, Clete. For example: God's Word teaches God is triune in nature. Yet what physical evidence is there that proves God is triune besides Scriptural truth?
I say that there should not be evident and if evidence is produced then I am wrong and so are my interpretations.
So far you have shown exactly zero even remotely verifiable evidence.
Evidence is found in Scripture not in experience.
Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
If you have in fact read and understood "The Plot" then you have already been shown where you are wrong
I don't dervive truth in the Plot book. I dervive truth from the Holy Scripture. Enyart, in regards to this issue, is way off base as evident in the clear teachings of God's Word.
This quote gives no names of those who experienced these miracles or even of those who witnessed them. Imagine that!
This film is being looked upon by many enemies and no one has proven that what Mel Gibson is claiming is in fact a lie. Quite the opposite many news organizations and people who were present at the set testified to these miracles.
Someone got struck by lightning on one of Mel Gibson's movie sets and it never even made on the evening news!
Huh? Many news outlets have reported the various miracles that have occured on the set.
Miracles do away with a need for faith and therefore make it more difficult to come to God.
No it doesn't. Where did you get this from? Enyart materials? God's Word says:
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;
or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
The more miracles that happen the more evil the people who witness them become (generally speaking).
Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ there. When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed.
So there was great joy in that city.
I don't know of one person who personally experienced a miracle of deliverance or healing who turned evil. If anything they were thankful and joyful to God.
Ever ask the question, "Why did Jesus respond "My Grace is sufficient for you." when Paul asked to be healed?
If this response was proper for Paul, why isn't it proper for the rest of the Body of Christ?
Sometimes God chooses not to heal. So? But often times God heals and your point?
Resting in the testimony of Jesus Christ and God's Word--our only objective truth standard--Freak
