Foundation.

[Spockrates]

Foundation.

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now I'm found.
Was blind but now I see.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.
When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Then when we first begun.
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found.
Was blind, but now I see

2 Chronicles 20:29 is a good place to start.

2 Chronicles 20:29-30 The fear of God came on all the surrounding kingdoms when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel. And the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God had given him rest on every side.

So there's a kind of poetry in much of Jewish writing, I think. Proverbs, for example demonstrates it. It's not a poetry of rhyming but is instead a poetry of comparing or contrasting. An example:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

The first phrase, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," is contrasted with the second phrase, "but fools despise wisdom and instruction." One idea is the opposite of the other.

Do you think the same is going on in the passage you mentioned? Is this phrase, "The fear of God came on all the surrounding kingdoms when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel," the opposite of this one? "And the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God had given him rest on every side."



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[Truster]

2 Chronicles 20:29-30 The fear of God came on all the surrounding kingdoms when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel. And the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God had given him rest on every side.

So there's a kind of poetry in much of Jewish writing, I think. Proverbs, for example demonstrates it. It's not a poetry of rhyming but is instead a poetry of comparing or contrasting. An example:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

The first phrase, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," is contrasted with the second phrase, "but fools despise wisdom and instruction." One idea is the opposite of the other.

Do you think the same is going on in the passage you mentioned? Is this phrase, "The fear of God came on all the surrounding kingdoms when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel," the opposite of this one? "And the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God had given him rest on every side."



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Provers is in the poetical books while chronicles is historical.

 

[Truster]

Romans 8:15 will be of use Spock...note the word "again".

 

[Spockrates]

Foundation.

Provers is in the poetical books while chronicles is historical.

Yeah, no. I'm not denying the historical facts of Chronicles. I'm suggesting verse 29 is being contrasted with verse 30, and I'm asking if we agree.




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[Spockrates]

Romans 8:15 will be of use Spock...note the word "again".

Yeas, let's look at that after we finish exploring the passage you mentioned from Chronicles.




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[Truster]

Yeah, no. I'm not denying the historical facts of Chronicles. I'm suggesting verse 29 is being contrasted with verse 30, and I'm asking if we agree.




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Yes it is in contrast and it describes a sinner, before and after regeneration. It also confirms sovereign choice as to who is in fear and who is in peace.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes it is in contrast and it describes a sinner, before and after regeneration. It also confirms sovereign choice as to who is in fear and who is in peace.

I agree it contrasts those who aren't following God with those who are. The former feel fear, the latter feel peace. Peace is an absence of fear I think. Don't you agree?


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[Spockrates]

Foundation.

Follwing Jesus' teachings: It is all in the books of gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

thank you for asking.

Thank you for saying! So maybe it's more accurate for me to say I'm wondering not about the love-fear relationship, but about the peace-fear relationship.

Would you say that when I follow Jesus' teachings I should feel peace, because I have nothing to fear? Would you also say that when I choose to not follow Jesus' teachings I should feel the opposite of peace, because I have something to fear?


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[Truster]

I agree it contrasts those who aren't following God with those who are. The former feel fear, the latter feel peace. Peace is an absence of fear I think. Don't you agree?


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Peace is the absence of the fear that contains dread, but true peace, knows and embraces the fear that is reverential. It allows the regenerate to worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:23 KJV

PS following the teaching of Messiah will bring you nothing but dread. You must be reborn from above.

 

[Spockrates]

Peace is the absence of the fear that contains dread, but true peace, knows and embraces the fear that is reverential. It allows the regenerate to worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:23 KJV

PS following the teaching of Messiah will bring you nothing but dread. You must be reborn from above.

I love John's gospel, probably because it has more of Jesus' words to his closest friends than the others, and I'd like to be that close. But I don't see any mention of fear or peace in the passage you cited:

John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."


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[Spockrates]

Romans 8:15 will be of use Spock...note the word "again".

Romans 8:15-17 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I'm thinking his passage teaches me to no longer fear, if I've actually received the Spirit. What do you think?


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[meshak]

Would you say that when I follow Jesus' teachings I should feel peace, because I have nothing to fear?

Yes.

 

[Truster]

Romans 8:15-17 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I'm thinking his passage teaches me to no longer fear, if I've actually received the Spirit. What do you think?


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If you have been converted then you have the Spirit and the promise is for you. Don't try and convince yourself that you have been converted.

 

[Truster]

I love John's gospel, probably because it has more of Jesus' words to his closest friends than the others, and I'd like to be that close. But I don't see any mention of fear or peace in the passage you cited:

John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."


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The reason for the link to John was to illustrate how those that are in the peace of the Father and the Son worship.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes.

I agree. What l'm unsure about is whether I should go back to feeling fear when I choose to disobey. Still trying to figure that one out. It's OK if you don't know, either, or know but aren't sure why.




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[Spockrates]

It's also OK if no one knows why. There's joy in the process of seeking the truth, even if I don't yet find it.


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[meshak]

I agree. What l'm unsure about is whether I should go back to feeling fear when I choose to disobey. Still trying to figure that one out. It's OK if you don't know, either, or know but aren't sure why.




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May I ask how long you have been a Christian?

 

[meshak]

It's also OK if no one knows why. There's joy in the process of seeking the truth, even if I don't yet find it.


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If we know Jesus, we ought to know.

 

[Spockrates]

May I ask how long you have been a Christian?

Not sure when. Some tell me I'm not. I know I want to be, if indeed I'm not.


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[Spockrates]

Foundation.

If we know Jesus, we ought to know.

Do you mean that if I know Jesus I ought to have a faith that makes me certain?


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