Another unsubstantiated assertion. Thanks for stopping by and relieving yourself. There are latrines for that sort of thing, you know?
Forced Vaccination is Wrong
- Thread starter 1PeaceMaker
- Start date
Another unsubstantiated assertion. Thanks for stopping by and relieving yourself. There are latrines for that sort of thing, you know?
Tyrathca
New member
Unsubstantiated assertion? Follow the links on the site being referenced you fraud. Unlike you I actually check the original source for myself.
The rest of your post is just disgraceful by the way.
The amount of aluminum an infant can tolerate, according to the FDA is 4.225mg (4225mcg). From your link
DTaP (diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis): 170–625 mcg, depending on manufacturer
Hepatitis A: 250 mcg
Hepatitis B: 250 mcg
Hib (for meningitis; PedVaxHib brand only): 225 mcg
HPV: 225 mcg
Pediarix (DTaP–hepatitis B–polio combination): 850 mcg
Pentacel (DTaP–Hib–polio combination): 330 mcg
Pneumococcus: 125 mcg (emphasis added)
Tyrathca
New member
I'm curious as to whether you ever actually went back and checked the original source. Did you find out when the product information was posted? Are you still disputing it was 2005 (my reference for that number is your reference btw)
I await your honest, well thought and reasoned response.... :AMR:
I await your honest, well thought and reasoned response.... :AMR:
Morning. Would you care to address your error regarding aluminum in vaccines?
Robert De Niro finds out the hard way that there is sufficient profit in the vaccination business to buy some very well placed friends ...
http://www.infowars.com/robert-de-niro-on-vaxxed-the-movie-is-something-that-people-should-see/
http://www.infowars.com/robert-de-niro-on-vaxxed-the-movie-is-something-that-people-should-see/
Greg Jennings
New member
Remember when you got shown up about a week ago?
Choleric
New member
124 studies linking autism to vaccines:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/124-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link
But of course, it's just a conspiracy theory. :AMR:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/124-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link
But of course, it's just a conspiracy theory. :AMR:
Tyrathca
New member
Are you actually going to defend any of those studies used?
1. So far as I can tell this was not a published study. I believe it may be part of a poster presentation for the first phase of *this study* which ultimately found no such association and the lead author has specifically rebuked anti-vaccinators from using his data as evidence for their claims.
2. Their key population of study was comparing a subgroup of only*31*boys with autism, 9 of which got the vaccine int he first month of life. The study also used children born from 1980 onward, even though the vaccine didn't become widely available until the 1990's so therefore there is the risk of changes in diagnosis and other exposures between these time periods would be a confounder (which the authors made no attempt to address).*
3. Mouse study showing gender difference in sensitivity to thiomersal. Apart from being an animal study (therefore results should be extrapolated to humans with caution) the dosages used were no where near human exposures via vaccines.
4. Essentially an animal study that suggests that genetic factors can be responsible for variations in mercury excretion rates. Again not readily extrapolatable to vaccines
5. Talks about the differences in expression of ASD symptoms based on genders (Highlighted was a statement re-iterating the widely known fact that autism is diagnosed in males more often than females). Does not talk about anything vaccine related.
6. An ecological study using population averages of autism rates compared with published vaccination schedules. Apart from such studies being extremely crude and impossible to attribute causality (there is no actual investigation linking individual exposures to measured end points, the chances for false positives with this method are FAR higher than those with individual breakdown of data) it is also relying on a lack of international variability in diagnosis, reporting and accuracy of reported prevalence rates. Furthermore the study is funded by anti-vaccinators, though this is not a major factor in dismissing this study.
7. Again an animal study, should be extrapolated to humans with caution. Interesting note: same authors and financial backers as the above study.
8. Not research/not a study. This is a review article and is merely the authors opinions and summary of how they view the current literature. Review articles are great for learning sometimes (I find them better than textbooks often) but should not be considered evidence for anything other than the authors opinions. Also again it is again by the some of the same people as above... (I'm seeing a pattern here...)
9. Again an environmental study looking at the increasing average population rates and then comparing against average population exposures. It suffers from the same limitations as any other study of its type, essentially I could use it as evidence for the cause of autism being anything which increased in frequency during the appropriate time period (perhaps children's exposure to The Simpsons? :chuckle: ) at best this study points to environmental exposures which might be worth further investigation, more so it points toward those exposures which are unlikely to be relevant and thus don't warrant further investigation (which makes the study of merit, so long as you don't try to over-extrapolate the data like you have). It is not even weak evidence of vaccines causing autism.
10. A small study which shows an association between mercury and lead toxicity and autism, as well as a reduction of symptoms with chelation. First of all I don't think this data has been able to be replicated and thus is likely a false positive, furthermore the data is not suggestive of vaccines as these have not been shown to increase the levels of these metals in blood and hair by significant amounts to my knowledge. This study would more likely implicate chronic high environmental exposures (i.e. paints, water etc) if it were actually confirmed (which it hasn't)
I think 10 studies is enough given the current poor quality of them.*I doubt you've actually checked the list let alone will actually defend it anyway, so I don't want to waste my time playing whack-a-mole with over 100 studies for no reason.
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Choleric
New member
I will do more than that, I will give you more.
The study was retrospective looking at 400,000 patients and is simple math. OF course, you can deny math if you want. Here are two more studies for you, from pubmed:
The present study provides new epidemiological evidence of a significant relationship between increasing organic Hg exposure from Thimerosal-containing vaccines and the subsequent risk of PDD diagnosis in males and females.
CONCLUSIONS:
Routine childhood vaccination is an important public health tool to reduce the morbidity and mortality associated with infectious diseases, but the present study provides new epidemiological evidence supporting an association between increasing organic-Hg exposure from Thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines and the subsequent risk of an ASD diagnosis.
And once a study is made available, you don't get to decide who uses it. You might not like the attention it brings, as it affects your standing and reputation, but the results stand on their own.
It was a published, and therefore, peer reveiewed study. You don't have to like the results, but they stand nonetheless.
Perhaps you are unaware of the process of medical discovery. Granted, mice studies have to be extended to humans before conclusions can be drawn, but that is the process.
Correlation precedes realization of likely causation which leads to the medical discovery of modality. This particular issue is stuck in a feedback loop of denial of correlation and the admission of causation, which is limiting the discovery of modality and is part of the reason autism occurrence is skyrocketing in this country. Denial of the preponderance of the evidence because it might affect one's research dollars is shameful medicine.
Once again a step in the discovery of modality. Vaccines and/or their ingredients are reacting to cause neurological disorders and we need to discover the contributing factors.
You are correct.
Again, this is the medical process. Correlation always precedes admissions of causation. This is valid science.
.
You have it backwards. There is no money in being "anit-vax". These people put their careers on the line. MEdical professionals standing up the the pharmaceutical industry is bad for business. Trying to pretend that the money is in going against the main funding source for the medical professional, only makes you look desperate for ways to deny the obvious.
You clearly have no idea what a retrospective evidence based study is or how prevalent this type of study is in research science. This is again the search for correlation, which will lead to a closer look into verifying causation, which, when science finally admits the obvious, will lead to the search for modality. This particular study concludes that aluminum is likely a correlative factor in causation.
As this is step one in the research method, further study is required, but that doesn't mean you dismiss it because it doesn't clearly extrapolate modality. You need to brush up on the scientific method.
I may find correlation between those with tennis shoes and lower rates of heart disease, which could lead me to claim that owning tennis shoes causes heart health. But as a responsible scientist, I would instead look into what other factors attribute and upon closer examination would find that people with tennis show exercise more. That would lead to a finding that it is exercise that leads to heart health and science would then dig deeper into the mode of action that causes the body and heart to positively respond to exercise.
See above, and the scientific method.
It has been replicated:
Toxicological Status of Children with Autism vs. Neurotypical Children and the Association with Autism Severity
and here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006963
And I don't care what you think about "more likely implicate...." This is the scientific method. We find correlation, then dig down to find clear signs of causation then modality. This is science, you can blame it on whatever you want, but to exclude these exact heavy metals in vaccines, as a possible causative factor, because you like vaccines is not science, that is bias.
You have done nothing but prove you prefer your bias over science. Here are some more studies for you to find a reason to dismiss. Again, before you go off on a tangent, remember the scientific method. Some studies look for correlation, some causation and fewer still at this stage of discovery, modality:
1. Hepatitis B Vaccination of Male Neonates and Autism
Annals of Epidemiology, September 2009
CM Gallagher, MS Goodman, Stony Brook University Medical Center
Boys vaccinated as neonates had threefold greater odds for autism diagnosis compared to boys never vaccinated or vaccinated after the first month of life.
2. Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: Implications for environmental toxicity
Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 2006
Robert Natafa, et al, Laboratoire Philippe Auguste, Paris, France
These data implicate environmental toxicity in childhood autistic disorder.
3. Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review
Journal of Immunotoxicology, January-March 2011
Helen V. Ratajczak, PhD
Autism could result from more than one cause, with different manifestations in different individuals that share common symptoms. Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis following vaccination.
4. Uncoupling of ATP-mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated IL-6 Secretion in Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal
Environmental Health Perspectives, July 2006.
Samuel R. Goth, Ruth A. Chu Jeffrey P. Gregg
This study demonstrates that very low-levels of Thimerosal can contribute to immune system disregulation.
5. Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal
Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. Epub 2008 Sep 3.
Branch DR, Departments of Medicine and Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto
A recent report shows a correlation of the historical use of thimerosal in therapeutic immunizations with the subsequent development of autism; however, this association remains controversial. Autism occurs approximately four times more frequently in males compared to females; thus, studies of thimerosal toxicity should take into consideration gender-selective effects. The present study was originally undertaken to determine the maximum tolerated dose (MTD) of thimersosal in male and female CD1 mice. However, during the limited MTD studies, it became apparent that thimerosal has a differential MTD that depends on whether the mouse is male or female.
6. Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant monkeys exposed to Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
Environmental Health Perspectives, Aug 2005.
Thomas Burbacher, PhD, University of Washington
This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in the brain, but leaves double the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in fish. This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury, and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is the “safe kind.” This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of Medicine’s recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism connection.
7. Increases in the number of reactive glia in the visual cortex of Macaca fascicularis following subclinical long-term methyl mercury exposure
Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 1994
Charleston JS et al, Department of Pathology, School of Medicine, University of Washington
The identities of the reactive glial cells and the implications for the long-term function and survivability of the neurons due to changes in the glial population following subclinical long-term exposure to mercury are discussed.
8. Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism
Annals of Neurology, Feb 2005.
Diana L. Vargas, MD [Johns Hopkins University]
This study, performed independently and using a different methodology than Dr. Herbert (see above) reached the same conclusion: the brains of autistic children are suffering from inflammation.
9. Autism: A Brain Disorder, or a Disorder That Affects the Brain?
Clinical Neuropsychiatry, 2005
Martha R. Herbert M.D., Ph.D., Harvard University
Autism is defined behaviorally, as a syndrome of abnormalities involving language, social reciprocity and hyperfocus or reduced behavioral flexibility. It is clearly heterogeneous, and it can be accompanied by unusual talents as well as by impairments, but its underlying biological and genetic basis in unknown. Autism has been modeled as a brain-based, strongly genetic disorder, but emerging findings and hypotheses support a broader model of the condition as a genetically influenced and systemic.
10.
Activation of Methionine Synthase by Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 and Dopamine: a Target for Neurodevelopmental Toxins and Thimerosal
Molecular Psychiatry, July 2004.
Richard C. Deth, PhD [Northeastern University]
This study demonstrates how Thimerosal inhibits methylation, a central driver of cellular communication and development.
11. Validation of the Phenomenon of Autistic Regression Using Home Videotapes
Archives of General Psychiatry, 2005
Emily Werner, PhD; Geraldine Dawson, PhD, University of Washington
Conclusion This study validates the existence of early autistic regression.
12. Blood Levels of Mercury Are Related to Diagnosis of Autism: A Reanalysis of an Important Data Set
Journal of Child Neurology, 2007
M. Catherine DeSoto, PhD, Robert T. Hitlan, PhD -Department of Psychology, University of Northern Iowa
Excerpt: “We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in 2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder. Moreover, the hair sample analysis results offer some support for the idea that persons with autism may be less efficient and more variable at eliminating mercury from the bloo
Tyrathca
New member
We'll see. Due to time constraints I'm going to have to respond to this piecemeal.
Citation needed. That study does not sound like it resembles the study mentioned nor does it agree with statements from the author themselves. How can I deny simple math when your example showed none. But sure you can deny the author who did the math and the actual published data all you want.
You say you were going to defend the studies and give me more. Now I see that you only really meant the latter, just going to pile more and more studies forcing a continuous whack-a-mole until I get bored or fed up, relying on quantity of claims rather than any quality.
How about you pick out some of your preferred evidence that you think can withstand scrutiny rather than expecting me to do all the work? I don't have the time to knock down 100 crap references (many of which after reading end up having little or nothing to do with your claims anyway, wasting my time further!) for you to just then throw another 100 crap references.
Yes I'm quite aware of the process, you however seem to be skipping all of the bold section of your statement. Which was part of my point. You've skipped two important factors with the mice models: A. the dosage B. extending it to humans.
So why did you give me a list that includes references which have obviously nothing to say about the actual topic? Did you actually read any of these before you posted them?
Never said it wasn't but you have to be aware of the limitations of certain methodologies and not skip all the following steps in confirming a link because it is convenient. You
There is for the researchers getting grants from people who have openly talked about how they despise vaccines. This is precisely what was happening with these researchers, the same researchers repeatedly getting funding from rich anti-vaxers to pump out low quality research which just so happened to agree with their funders opinions. Fortunately they were open about who funded them (hard not to though)
Pretending that you're side is immune is naive.
Are you talkign about a "retrospective cohort", that was not it. This was a review article, pure and simple. Here I will even give you the wikipedia page explaining what that is (since clearly you have no idea)
This "study" contained no original research nor was it a systematic review/meta-analysis of published research. It's conclusions are nothing more than the opinions of the authors, no matter how many buzzwords you throw around.
I'll have to come back to the rest later.
Tyrathca
New member
Any chance you will ever respond to criticisms of your evidence or have you devolved into a pathetic cheer squad?
Why? Look at the dozens of posts of mine that went unaddressed and you want me to address one of yours? Take a hike ... besides, you vax Nazis should be happy for the silence ... the silence of DeNiro. Force others to take vaccinations and silence any criticism while worshiping at the altar of the admittedly inaccurate and deliberately deceptive FDA that guards big pharma's profits.
THAT is pathetic.
This thread and my offerings to it are not for you and your ilk ... it's for those that actually care about their kids.
Choleric
New member
CItation needed for what? THe numbers are in the abstract, 400,000 patients. Results=thirmerosal and mercury were correlative factors for autism. Keep denying the evidence and lets see how many more kids we can affect...
I don't expect you to deal with each study, nor do I care what you think. But it is people like you and that idiot doctor in the video in this thread that are denying the prepondernece of "CORRELLATION" data that links heavy metals and thirmerosal to autism.
Sure, you can claim it isn't 100% determined that vaccines cause it, and you can claim that there may be other environmental factors that contribute, but the fact remains that the correlation has been determined over and over again.
You aren't dealing with them. You are simply pointing our reasons that the data doesn't necessarily admit vaccines are the cause, which I have never denied. All I am attempting to do is silence the critics who pretend there is no scientific data that correlates the two. Until people are willing to look at the evidence without bias, we will continue to delay, unnecessarily, autism research.
Again and again and again, none of this is conclusive, it is illustrative of correlation. No study is ever perfect, but high dose mice studies is COMMONPLACE research. Stop pretending like some crazy anit-vaxxers skewed the study. It is how medical research is done.
And notice what that dosage created in the mice. The reason researchers do high dose is to force the body into a response. These high dices didn't create heart disease, or diarrhea, or stroke or high blood pressure or diabetes or anything else. These high doses of heavy metals created....you got it, autistic like diseases
that should get the attention of the research community. Honest researchers should see it calls for more studies. Partner that with the studies where autistic kids tested high for heavy metals in hair samples and we are beginning to see a medical pattern develop.
I did not read them all, nor did I compile the list, I simply admit that this one study wasn't relevant.
Every researcher is aware of the limitations, but that is how medical research advances. You have to find correlation first. You can't explain the mode of action yet, but there is clearly correlation between heavy metals and autism
So a group of moms who want vaccine research are going to out fund the pharmaceautical industry. You are losing credibility with this sort of claim. Funny how you claim any research that you don't like is "low quality".
THis article has 277 source articles and is well researched. It is what medicine is, a highly educated guess at CORRELLATION. Kind of like the correlation study in the 70's that led to the "low fat" craze that didn't prove it was fat causing heart problems, just showed CORRELATION.
I look forward to it.
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Tyrathca
New member
I'm not going to respond to every random post, that would require way too much time. If you have something particular you want me to address then call attention to it (note: if it involves a youtube video or a random website without original research I WILL laugh at you and move on). I don't expect you to address one of my posts of evidence for vaccines but I do however expect you to at least defend what you have already posted, if you don't then what is the point in me responding to anything else you write?
I have not read or posted anything about the DeNiro thing. But I'm confused here, are you saying that pro-vaccinators should be censored when making open criticisms of anti-vaccination films? Is there something more to this story I was missing by skimming past the headlines?
Ironically only one of us has referenced the FDA and only one of us has read what the FDA said. Sadly those aren't the same person.
You are the only person to reference the FDA. I on the other hand can't recall ever referencing them, in fact I can't recall the last time I read what they had to say about a drug before your reference (and I read a lot about different drugs). It may shock you but I don't actually care what your government agency says really (shock horror the world doesn't revolve around the USA!)
Yes it is very pathetic that the only person here who think the FDA is worth referencing is the only person here who didn't read what they said. Perhaps you should stop being pathetic?
You actually think I'm part of a conspiracy intentionally trying to kill children don't you?
:kookoo:
I don't care if you vaccinate or not. My children are vaccinated and protected from your children. I won't force you to vaccinate. I will speak out against your misinformation.
I did not expect you to honestly address the issue of aluminum in vaccines. You don't have the integrity to do so.