ECT For those who believe God requires works to be or stay saved

[glorydaz]

Isn't the very act of believing or having faith a work? If not, why not?

Didn't Paul tell us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

Those are good questions. This is how I see it.

We aren't doing anything, we are persuaded by hearing the word of God. When we are fully persuaded we trust God. Paul makes it clear in the first few verses of Romans 4 that believing is not a work.

Notice Paul doesn't tell us to work FOR our salvation. He says to work it OUT... where it can be seen "in the midst of a wicked and perverse nation". He makes that clear by going on to say it is "God which worketh in you...". The "fear and trembling" speaks of the reverence and carefulness with which we walk through this world....which is not our home.

Phil. 3:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil. 3:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Phil. 3:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Phil. 3:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;​

 

[jamie]

Why do you think God put the tree of knowledge in the middle of the garden by the tree of life and why did he allow Satan in the garden to talk to man?

Satan is a great benefit to us.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Question:

What is their purpose? How do works figure in to you getting or staying justified, to the point that without works you will be lost? What is it exactly that your works do for you, or for God, or both?

God indeed requires obedience. It is the duty of all. Fortunately, Our Lord perfectly fulfilled all the law of God in our stead and God the Father graciously imputes that One's active and passive obedience, declaring justified, to any who will call upon His name.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

AMR

 

[TulipBee]

God indeed requires obedience. It is the duty of all. Fortunately, Our Lord perfectly fulfilled all the law of God in our stead and God the Father graciously imputes that One's active and passive obedience, declaring justified, to any who will call upon His name.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

AMR

Those that God drew has to obey. They get used to obedience like we get used to our arm. It's part of being the child of God. Most here use obedience to gain approval for a ticket to heaven.

 

[TulipBee]

They believe works are required as verifying proof of salvation, else salvation is disproved or at best dubious; that's what LS is all about. So there's no real difference; LS just puts the work requirement after salvation instead of up front as most do. It's still a false gospel.

And the dying or the weak can't work so they go to hell according to you. Faith precedes regeneration is false

 

[genuineoriginal]

"Fruit inspectors."

The Apostle Paul said you should inspect yourself for fruit.

 

[DAN P]

And the dying or the weak can't work so they go to hell according to you. Faith precedes regeneration is false

Hi and I have never seen that verse , so where is it found ??

dan p

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


It is to those who are IN Christ that the apostles encouraged that they ought ABIDE In Him.

Being IN Christ is not the same as abiding in Christ but one must be IN Christ before one can abide.

Mankind IN Christ have found many ways to avoid abiding in Christ, but it only leads to their demise, if not repented of.

However many self willed there be who were never IN Christ in the first place and can do or say anything they like, thinking that the absence of (sensitivity to) conviction of sin must be Gods approval.

They will burn ---

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


LA

 

[Arsenios]

Question:

What is their purpose? How do works figure in to you getting or staying justified, to the point that without works you will be lost? What is it exactly that your works do for you, or for God, or both?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a command: "Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

And:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are taking it by force."

And:

"If anyone is willing, after me to be following, let him first deny himself, then take up his own cross, and follow me."

God does not need our repentance - But we sure do...

Repentance is a vigilant state of mind against sin, and as long as we live upon this fallen earth in fallen bodies, we need to do the works of God, and not those of evil, and we will do works. And at the dread and Last Judgement, it is our works that will judge us, and not some "beliefs" which we imagine we possess.

What we DO matters, and all doing is works, and the doing of God's will is what Christians do, and in this doing, and in its tribulations in the world, they live in peace... The fear and trembling they undergo is against the doing of sin, which in our fallen state ever besets all men...

In the Life of the Age to Come, we will not need vigilance against evils, but in this life we need the works of repentance from self will and the works of doing God's will for us... Without God, we can do nothing... And in THIS fallen life, we can do both good and evil - It is up to us to choose, and we will be judged by our deeds, and not by our beliefs, except insofar as they result in actions...

Demons believe, but do not do...

Arsenios

 

[musterion]

God indeed requires obedience. It is the duty of all

He expects obedience, and is entitled to it. I've never disagreed with that. The question is, does the obedience required for salvation - what we must do to be saved - require human works, either to be or to stay saved?

 

[TulipBee]

Hi and I have never seen that verse , so where is it found ??

dan p

Oh shoot! I couldn't find the word bible, rapture or regeneration in the word of God book. Sorry I can't help you there. Couldn't find "Jesus is God" so I guess you don't believe Jesus is God, either. I think you're just looking at the surface of the bible. You really got to read it instead.

 

[Cross Reference]

Question:

What is their purpose? How do works figure in to you getting or staying justified, to the point that without works you will be lost? What is it exactly that your works do for you, or for God, or both?

Works are for winning souls, serving the divine Life indwelling you, not for disobedience In the Life of our Lord, as Son of Man, when He transformed innocence into holiness by a series of moral choices, He gave the pattern forever of how a holy character was to be developed.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Just a point here...there's a huge difference between works as a prerequisite and works as a standard. When you inspect a tree, you don't look for fruit to grow on the roots. If it did, something would be very wrong.

Very well put.

 

[musterion]

Just a point here...there's a huge difference between works as a prerequisite and works as a standard. When you inspect a tree, you don't look for fruit to grow on the roots. If it did, something would be very wrong.

So as I already said, there's no real difference. Works are determining salvation.

 

[JonahofAkron]

They have a lot of purposes but one is by them we can know where we and others stand with God.
Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
1 Jn. 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:


When we are told of people being sent to hell in scripture, what are they accused of? Sin. If I understand OSAS, shouldn’t belief be the standard and not works? In the parable of the talents, the three men were all servants of the master but why was the one cast into hell and not the others? James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
In Matt. 7, they recognized Jesus as Lord and saying Lord, Lord shows sincerity but what is his charge against them? you who practice lawlessness.'
Then he illustrates the point with the parable of the builders.
Wise man - hears these words of Mine and acts on them
Foolish man - hears these words of Mine and does not act on them
Belief is action, not just mental understanding.



They glorify and please God.
Matt. 5:16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Very excellent

 

[JonahofAkron]

lucifer fell when he tempted Eve

No indication either way, though the text says the snake was crafty already.....

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

So as I already said, there's no real difference. Works are determining salvation.

There is one real huge difference. It's works of man, in man's own effort, in man's own power, in man's own pride, works of the law; vs. Works done through Christ in us, His love in us, done through our faith in Him, our relationship with Him, our intimacy with Him, man reflecting the love, life and works of Christ, His Grace, love and power demonstrated in us.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jesus spoke the truth.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

LA

Jesus was speaking to the House of Israel. Paul was sent to
the gentiles with Christ's message of God's Grace towards
man.

 

[Cross Reference]

The whole world was redeemed and restored to it's proper relationship with God, irrespective of man's works, was it not?

Redeemed from what, might I ask?

 

[Arsenios]

He expects obedience, and is entitled to it. I've never disagreed with that. The question is, does the obedience required for salvation - what we must do to be saved - require human works, either to be or to stay saved?

Human obedience to Christ is THE work of man unto his Salvation BY God - It is THE Faith THROUGH which man IS saved BY God...

Arsenios