ECT For the Preteristst to Review

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Let us look at this passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (Lk.21:27-32).​

Since the Lord Jesus has not yet returned to the earth it is certain that the generation (genea) who lived in the first century did not see Him in the clouds. So the last verse in "bold" must mean something other than the idea that those living in the first century saw Him in the clouds.

One of the meanings of the Greek word genea which is found in the Lidell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon is "family":

"genea,, a/j, Ion. geneh,, h/j( h`, Ep. dat. geneh/fi: (gi,gnomai): I. of the persons in a family, 1. race, stock, family, Hom., etc.; Pria,mou g. Il.; evk geneh/j according to his family, Ib.; geneh/| by birth-right, Od.; geneh.n Aivtwlo,j by descent, Il.:-of horses, a breed, Ib.:-generally, geneh,n in kind, Hdt.:-also a tribe, nation, Persw/n g. Aesch. 2. a race, generation, oi[hper fu,llwn geneh. toih,de kai. avndrw/n Il.; du,o geneai. avnqrw,pwn Ib. 3. offspring, Orac. ap. Hdt.; and of a single person, Soph. II. of time or place in reference to birth: 1. a birth-place, geneh. evpi. li,mnh| Gugai,h| Il.; of an eagle's eyrie, Od. 2. age, time of life, esp. in phrases geneh/| new,tatoj( presbu,tatoj youngest, eldest, in age, or by birth, Hom. 3. time of birth, evk geneh/j Hdt.; avpo. g. Xen."

Therefore, there can be no doubt that one of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family" and it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Luke 21:32. Therefore, the correct translation in the following verse is this one:

"Verily I say unto you, This family (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"
(Lk.21:32).​

The family refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Lord Jesus' sermon foretold of the "great tribulation," a time when Israel will be attacked unmercifully in an attempt to destroy the whole family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore it would not be unusual for the Lord Jesus to assure them that they will not be wiped out and that they will continue to exist. Therefore, He told them that the family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would still be in existence when He returned to the earth.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
Let us look at this passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (Lk.21:27-32).​

Since the Lord Jesus has not yet returned to the earth it is certain that the generation (genea) who lived in the first century did not see Him in the clouds. So the last verse in "bold" must mean something other than the idea that those living in the first century saw Him in the clouds.

One of the meanings of the Greek word genea which is found in the Lidell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon is "family":

"genea,, a/j, Ion. geneh,, h/j( h`, Ep. dat. geneh/fi: (gi,gnomai): I. of the persons in a family, 1. race, stock, family, Hom., etc.; Pria,mou g. Il.; evk geneh/j according to his family, Ib.; geneh/| by birth-right, Od.; geneh.n Aivtwlo,j by descent, Il.:-of horses, a breed, Ib.:-generally, geneh,n in kind, Hdt.:-also a tribe, nation, Persw/n g. Aesch. 2. a race, generation, oi[hper fu,llwn geneh. toih,de kai. avndrw/n Il.; du,o geneai. avnqrw,pwn Ib. 3. offspring, Orac. ap. Hdt.; and of a single person, Soph. II. of time or place in reference to birth: 1. a birth-place, geneh. evpi. li,mnh| Gugai,h| Il.; of an eagle's eyrie, Od. 2. age, time of life, esp. in phrases geneh/| new,tatoj( presbu,tatoj youngest, eldest, in age, or by birth, Hom. 3. time of birth, evk geneh/j Hdt.; avpo. g. Xen."

Therefore, there can be no doubt that one of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family" and it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Luke 21:32. Therefore, the correct translation in the following verse is this one:

"Verily I say unto you, This family (genea) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"
(Lk.21:32).​

The family refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Lord Jesus' sermon foretold of the "great tribulation," a time when Israel will be attacked unmercifully in an attempt to destroy the whole family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore it would not be unusual for the Lord Jesus to assure them that they will not be wiped out and that they will continue to exist. Therefore, He told them that the family of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would still be in existence when He returned to the earth.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.



It's not family and its that intense turbulent time, Jerry. That's why everything up to v29 is 1st century, Judaic and Judean.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It's not family and its that intense turbulent time, Jerry. That's why everything up to v29 is 1st century, Judaic and Judean.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus asked Him what will be the signs of the end of the age:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"
(Mt. 13:37-43).​

This prophecy has never been fulfilled so it is obvious that a first century generation never saw these things.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The disciples of the Lord Jesus asked Him what will be the signs of the end of the age:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear"
(Mt. 13:37-43).​

This prophecy has never been fulfilled so it is obvious that a first century generation never saw these things.



They expected it right after the destruction of Jerusalem, but it was delayed. The judgement of the world (v29+) is still at the end of the age, and his coming.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It's not family and its that intense turbulent time, Jerry. That's why everything up to v29 is 1st century, Judaic and Judean.

So you are saying that these things have already happened:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened....For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together"
(Mt.24:21-28).​

Are you then saying that the things which are said to "immediately" follow the great tribulation did not happen even though the great tribulation did happen?:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
(Mt.24:29-30).​

Are you saying that even though the Lord Jesus said that the signs in the sky will happen IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation that they never happened?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
So you are saying that these things have already happened:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened....For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together"
(Mt.24:21-28).​

Are you then saying that the things which are said to "immediately" follow the great tribulation did not happen even though the great tribulation did happen?:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
(Mt.24:29-30).​

Are you saying that even though the Lord Jesus said that the signs in the sky will happen IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation that they never happened?



Yes, they were supposed to happen right after the destruction of Jerusalem. (There were unusual signs during it, but not those.) This is supported by Paul (most of Luke's material is transcription from Paul) who never mentions a delay between those two events. And yet there was/has been. I believe this is the thing that is hard to understand for Peter in 2 Pet 3. Look all through Paul, and you have a person saying the final day of the world is really soon, even when talking to people about getting married in I Cor 7.

It is other apostles who allow for a delay. Matthew says only the Father knows the time of the end of the world, while Mark allows 4 options. Peter says God has indeed delayed the end of the world to save many more people.

Therefore:
NT eschatology (the gospels, I & II Thess, 2 Pet 3) say there are events:

*in Judea in that generation and
*the whole world's judgement

But they never mix these, and the original belief was 'immediately after.' One of the key pieces of theological 'work' to do is to reconstruct what the remaining apostles thought after the destruction of Jerusalem when the final judgement did not occur. To make things even more curious, Pompeii happened in 79 AD. A debauched Italian city is flash- fried by a volcano, and everything is basically stored 'forever' in cooled lava as it happened that day. Was God saying 'I'm warning you!' to humanity?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yes, they were supposed to happen right after the destruction of Jerusalem.

According to your discredited ideas the Lord Jesus was in error when He said this:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).​

Your ideas are in error so in order to try to defend them you say that it was the Lord Jesus who was in error and not you!
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
According to your discredited ideas the Lord Jesus was in error when He said this:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).​

Your ideas are in error so in order to try to defend them you say that it was the Lord Jesus who was in error and not you!



Please note that the things that were going to happen right after the destruction of Jerusalem are worldwide. that is the important thing. But they did not happen then. There has been a delay. This delay was never mentioned or allowed by Paul, but Matthew, Mark and Peter all have ways of allowing for it.

If you want some real theological work, go grab Lattourrette's classic history, p44 and read the comments on the remaining apostles coming to terms with the non-ending of the world after the destruction of Jerusalem, which would have been the expected outcome. That's the remaining question we all have to work out. I believe the answer is Mark's 4 options: it doesn't matter which of the 4 the master decides, we are just to be busy with the mission of the Gospel.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Anything but the scripture...IP's MO.




The very opposite. There is no other quote from anyone for months, but if I mention one who makes an attempt to 'snapshot' the apostles thinking in 73 AD (1 year after the dust settled on Jerusalem) you call it my MO. You sound just like a liberal in how your thoughts are constructed.

Here is the point: if you really know the NT, you know that the most valuable thing is what was thought in "73" (ie immediately after the destruction of Israel). The 2nd coming didn't happen 'right after' as declared by Christ with the allowance for delay. So then, what to do?

The answer: continue with the mission. which is where we are today. No list of things to happen in Israel, etc. Just the mission of the Gospel to the nations.

This is the logical bottleneck to which the Scriptures and its history point. It is not at all the 'absence' of them. It is the coherence or coordination of them.

Like it or not, church history is there, and you can understand some things about the NT by working retroactively back from what the apostles thought after "73" to what was thought up to that point.
 

Danoh

New member
Huh?

Who cares about church history?
Did not the vast majority abandon Paul's doctrine mid first century?

Maybe they went on tour with Cornelius and his Italian Band - you know "drop your silver in my tambourine...listen while I play-ay-ay - my green tambourine..."

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Huh?

Who cares about church history?
Did not the vast majority abandon Paul's doctrine mid first century?



They did but I'm referring to tracking the apostles from later comments.

We should care about church history to find out why futurism was suddenly popular in the 16th century, if you did not know.
 
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