For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[Tambora]

Well, that wasn't the only thing. He said to do and observe all that the pharisee says to do and observe. Even after his death and resurection. He told them to teach all that he commanded. You can't command belief.

:thumb: (especially for the bold part)

 

[Tambora]

My understanding of MAD is that the basic principle is that those who would be of the BOC (body of Christ) was not manifested until Paul revealed it.

All the other stuff, such as who populates the millennium, and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, is not expressly limited to MAD only.

 

[Nick M]

Nick, can you explain more about Peters letters... you said in G&_Ps thread it was regarding his hope for the future. Also, am I crazy, or is James truly speaking of justification by works like I think he is? Seems cut and dry, but you know I'm not the brightest crayon in the box...

Yeah, later.

 

[Nick M]

Of course James is saying good works and works of the law are needed for justification. Other Christians that say they are not "MAD" but are fully in line with Paul's gospel say James is just wrong. I have even seen it here. It means exactly what it says.

Paul says now to him who works, the works are counted as debt. And faith is counted as righteousness for those that don't work. James says faith without works is dead. The messages are irreconcilable. They are just to different groups (churches).

Peter said

2 Peter 1:10

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Where people are sometimes lost on Paul is he says more or less to finish the race. But always consider the audiance. They are of Israel, and have to endure to the end for their earthly kingdom. Paul can reaffirm that point, and still teach that eternal life comes from the cross and no other place.

Luke record in Acts 15, that Peter is looking forward to the day when they are saved as the gentiles are. The gentiles were already saved, by grace. National Israel was not.

 

[chickenman]

Okay; trying to get back in the TOL groove (for today, at least :chuckle.

I have been listening to some audio sermons of MAD to try and further get a grip on exactly what is taught.

One portion caught my interest.
It was concerning the reason Jesus healed.

In a nutshell, it suggested the physical healings were done to prepare the folks for the kingdom.
Scripture says the kingdom will be a kingdom of priests.
One could not be a priest if he had a physical defect.

I agree with this. The scriptures don't explicitly tell us that, but it seems to fit in with the times (at the time). Jesus preached on earth to prepare the Israelites for the coming judgment and coming kingdom ("Repent for the kingdom is at hand", etc.). While healings would certainly play a part in validating (except to the thick-headed and obstinate person) who Jesus was, the connections to the [then] coming kingdom were undeniable.

Concerning sickness in the kingdom:

In that kingdom, there would be no sickness/disease.
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Is. 35:5

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev. 22:2
​

And, to your point, concerning the priesthood:

...and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation... Ex. 19:6

Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, no man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. Lev. 14:17-21
​

This was the requirement for the Levitical priest. And considering that the nation of righteous Israel would ALL be priests in the kingdom, and considering that sickness and disease would be done away in that kingdom, then it makes sense that in preparing for that coming kingdom, there would be things going on that were connected to the priesthood (healings, baptisms, etc.), even though it would no longer be a strictly Levitical priesthood.

That's my long-winded way of saying: I agree with what you heard in that sermon, tambora.

RA

 

[chickenman]

Hey, bro. We don't cross paths much. Glad to see you over in this neck o'...

A few questions regarding the MAD take on these topics:

What do you make of Jesus telling the disciples that the only work was to "believe on Him who He has sent?".

Is this the passage to which you're referring?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29
​

If so, it doesn't say "only" work. However, regardless of the dispensation in which one lived, believing in God was fundamental. Under the Mosaic law, if one performed all the sacrifices religiously yet had no faith, his sacrifices were irrelevant. God desired a broken and contrite heart over sacrifices and burnt offerings (Ps. 51:16-17). So Jesus can say:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...
​

...because that work ("and is baptized") was required as a demonstration of the fundamental requirement of faith ("he that believeth"). But without faith, then the work would be irrelevant. Hence...

...but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar. 16:16
​

The one who had faith would do that which was required by God. So a sacrifice done by the faithful man was an act of believing God. Loving one's brethren, per Jesus' command, would be an act of "believing on Him whom He hath sent." Etc.

Was it looking forward to the BOC?

No. Hopefully the above addressed this adequately. Jesus' audience in the epistles were required to keep the commandments and to faithfully endure to the end. This would be their demonstration of faith in the Son of God, enabling them to inherit the promises. The Body of Christ, however, is not required to do any works in order to receive our inheritance (Rom. 4:5).

To be honest, while I know you see the gospels as For Israel and rom-Phil for the BOC not sure how you deal with the gospels... Just curious how you handle that

Can you elaborate? What do you mean with "how you deal with the gospels"?

Also, what is your precise take on the covenant? How do you define the new covenant and to what group(s) does it apply?

According to Jeremiah 31, it must apply to the houses of Israel and Judah. Looking at that passage and related passages, then I define the new covenant as:

• not according to the covenant God made with their fathers - Jer. 31:32
• the law will be written in their inward parts - Jer. 31:33
• He will be their God, and they shall be His people - Jer. 31:33
• They shall teach no more every m an his neighbor and brother to know the Lord, for they will all knw the Lord - Jer. 31:34
• God will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more - Jer. 31:34
• He will cleanse them - Ez. 36:25
• He will give them a new heart - Ez. 36:26
• He will put His spirit within them, causing them to walk in His statutes - Ez. 36:27
• [as a result] they will keep his judgments, and do them - Ez. 36:27
• He will finish the transgression - Dan 9:24
• He will make an end of sins - Dan 9:24
• He will make reconciliation for iniquity - Dan 9:24
• He will bring in everlasting righteousness - Dan 9:24
• He will seal up vision and prophecy - Dan 9:24
• He will anoint the most Holy - Dan 9:24

The new covenant with Israel and Judah would be entered into by those who would endure faithfully to the end. It will coincide with the giving of the land promise and the kingdom promise. Entering into His rest (Heb. 4) encompasses entry into the land, kingdom, and new covenant.

Regarding the heart, is the BOC believer given a new heart or is it still desperately wicked?

I don't see in the doctrine for the Body of Christ (Paul's letters) that we have a new heart, per se. However, having been placed into Christ, we have the mind of Christ (I Cor. 2:16). So in that sense, we definitely have a new heart.

Thanks.

Thanks for the questions, brother. I didn't elaborate with scriptures on too much. So let me know if you'd like me to zoom in on anything in particular, and I'll do a better job of laying out the biblical position on it.

Thanks,
Randy

 

[chickenman]

My understanding of MAD is that the basic principle is that those who would be of the BOC (body of Christ) was not manifested until Paul revealed it.

The way I state the basic principle of MidActs Dispensationslism is this: The Body of Christ and the dispensation of grace could not have begun before God called out Paul.

That's it, as I see it. That's the fundamental thing that defines what MidActs Dispensationalism is (hence the name, "MidActs"). There are many other things that SHOULD be clear with that. So MidActs'ers will automatically agree on a lot of details. But we're just people who study (hopefully) and come to our own conclusions (with exceptions, of course). So we'll certainly differ on details, as well, as we come to our own conclusions.

All the other stuff, such as who populates the millennium, and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, is not expressly limited to MAD only.

Right. These are things that would generally be agreed upon by MidActs'ers. But others, like you and steko, are not MidActs'ers yet you still share the same or similar beliefs on some of those things.

 

[chickenman]

To tack on to Nick's post to you, Deetsy, about Peter...

Peter wrote:

...receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. I Peter. 1:9
​

Peter awaited a day when the end of his faith (a life of faithful endurance) would reveal the promises he longed for...those things promised to the fathers. He would be saved by grace, but he would only receive that at the second coming.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you... I Peter 1:10

Wherefore gird up the loins of yoru mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ... I Peter 1:13
​

We have the same deal - NOW - that Peter will receive - LATER. We're all saved by grace, it's just the timing that is different. We're placed into Christ upon belief, receiving righteousness and the eternal blotting out of sins immediately. Israel will be placed into the new covenant with God in the future, where they will receive righteousness and the eternal blotting out of sins.

My 2 cents...

Randy

 

[Livelystone]

Glad you guys took the time to explain your beliefs. I had thought it just meant believing in a rapture and not different requirements for salvation for different people.

That is a doctrine I never knew existed

 

[chickenman]

Hi, livelystone.

 

[Livelystone]

Hi, livelystone.

Hello to you

If you are interested in what I believe you can find it in a month or so under the title "Modern Day Prophet" that was just given the go-ahead to publish yesterday.

For sure there are still grammatical errors the same as Pul said it would be the base ones of the world that would confound the wisdom of the wise. My book uses the laws for determining the truth the same as Jesus spoke of them in Matt. 5:17-19



Blessings

LS

 

[Nick M]

We have the same deal - NOW - that Peter will receive - LATER. We're all saved by grace, it's just the timing that is different. We're placed into Christ upon belief, receiving righteousness and the eternal blotting out of sins immediately. Israel will be placed into the new covenant with God in the future, where they will receive righteousness and the eternal blotting out of sins.

My 2 cents...

Randy

And to tack on to chickenman, Peter has an earthly inheritence, and will have the keys to the kingdom on earth. We don't, but I can live with that.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

We have the same deal - NOW - that Peter will receive - LATER. We're all saved by grace, it's just the timing that is different.

:up: Good stuff, :chicken:

Yes, Paul was as of one (an Israelite) born out of due time (prematurely)....the due time for their birth, 2nd coming. But, the Lord appeared to him before the 2nd coming, contrary to the mouth of all the Holy prophets.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This may help with the "Big Picture":

Israel's Feast Days

1. Passover - cross - fulfilled
2. Unleavened Bread - burial - fulfilled
3. First Fruits - resurrection - fulfilled
4. Pentecost - two wave loaves - Israel and Judah - fulfilled

5. Trumpets - regathering - future
6. Day of Atonement - 2nd coming - blotting out sins - future
7. Tabernacles - dwelling together in His presence - future



These 7 feast days are fulfilled through the "Rise" of Israel.


Yet, Israel fell sometime in Acts, and were dispersed. (Hence the regathering in day#5)


What's missing from the prophetic picture above? We are in it, it was explained by Paul, and it "fills up the word of God" and "fills up the times".

 

[Livelystone]

Of course James is saying good works and works of the law are needed for justification. Other Christians that say they are not "MAD" but are fully in line with Paul's gospel say James is just wrong. I have even seen it here. It means exactly what it says.

James is speaking of works that prove ones faith the same way that Jesus spoke of the works done by Him that proved his faith seen through the working of miracles proving He was in God and God was in Him. This was the same reason why the Apostles (including James) were able to witness God working miracles through them.

Without the presence of miracles there is no proof of the divine presence of God within a ministry

Of course ministries that cannot prove the presence of God through ANY miracles done through them are always the first ones to jump up and say how Satan can work miracles that will fool the elect......... LOL, as if no one can see the lie they are hiding behind and that God is not witnessing their ministry because the truth is not in them.

LS

 

[Tambora]

The way I state the basic principle of MidActs Dispensationslism is this: The Body of Christ and the dispensation of grace could not have begun before God called out Paul.

That might be a better way to say it!

Thanks, Chickenman.
I've enjoyed being a study-buddy with you.


Is is correct to say that the MAD view is that, at this present time, there is no entering the kingdom of heaven (ie. the earthly kingdom of Israel)?
Because entering that kingdom cannot happen until the restoration of Israel.

The only thing you can "enter" at this present time is the BOC.


(By "present time", I'm talking about the time between the destruction of the nation of Israel and it's restoration.)


Is that correct?

 

[chickenman]

That might be a better way to say it!

Thanks, Chickenman.
I've enjoyed being a study-buddy with you.


Is is correct to say that the MAD view is that, at this present time, there is no entering the kingdom of heaven (ie. the earthly kingdom of Israel)?
Because entering that kingdom cannot happen until the restoration of Israel.

The only thing you can "enter" at this present time is the BOC.


(By "present time", I'm talking about the time between the destruction of the nation of Israel and it's restoration.)


Is that correct?

During this dispensation of grace, anyone who believes the gospel of Christ will be baptized into Christ, becoming part of the body of Christ. There's no gospel of the kingdom, as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus (on earth), and the 12 that can be preached and believed today. So no one can become what we call a kingdom believer today. After the physical adoption of the body believers, then the gospel of the kingdom will be preached again since, at that time, the earthly kingdom will be at hand. And those who [then] believe the gospel and faithfully endure to the end will inherit the promises.

So...yes.

Thanks, tambora, for the questions/comments and sharpening stone.

Randy

 

[steko]

During this dispensation of grace, anyone who believes the gospel of Christ will be baptized into Christ, becoming part of the body of Christ. There's no gospel of the kingdom, as preached by John the Baptist, Jesus (on earth), and the 12 that can be preached and believed today. So no one can become what we call a kingdom believer today. After the physical adoption of the body believers, then the gospel of the kingdom will be preached again since, at that time, the earthly kingdom will be at hand. And those who [then] believe the gospel and faithfully endure to the end will inherit the promises.

So...yes.

Thanks, tambora, for the questions/comments and sharpening stone.

Randy

I agree with that! :thumb:

 

[Nick M]

James is speaking of works that prove ones faith the same way that Jesus spoke of the works done by Him that proved his faith seen through the working of miracles proving He was in God and God was in Him.

Nope. You are carnal minded. That means your mind is on the flesh. This is why you didn't use any scripture to make your case. James is very adamant, even saying, "you have faith, I will show you my faith by my works." Paul says it will be counted as debt.

This was the same reason why the Apostles (including James) were able to witness God working miracles through them.

Only in the gospel of the kingdom. It was a sign to the restoration of Israel, a taste of things to come (heaven on earth)

Without the presence of miracles there is no proof of the divine presence of God within a ministry

So somebody like Evel Knievel isn't saved, because his health wasn't restored? You are lost and doomed to hell. I am telling you now because of what you confess.

of course ministries that cannot prove the presence of God through ANY miracles done through them are always the first ones to jump up and say how Satan can work miracles that will fool the elect......... LOL, as if no one can see the lie they are hiding behind and that God is not witnessing their ministry because the truth is not in them.

LS

Then the previous quote of yours that I copied is meaningless and false, and it was used to try and prove your first point. So you said everything you say is wrong. So why post?

 

[Livelystone]

Nope. You are carnal minded. That means your mind is on the flesh. This is why you didn't use any scripture to make your case. James is very adamant, even saying, "you have faith, I will show you my faith by my works." Paul says it will be counted as debt.



Only in the gospel of the kingdom. It was a sign to the restoration of Israel, a taste of things to come (heaven on earth)


Then the previous quote of yours that I copied is meaningless and false, and it was used to try and prove your first point. So you said everything you say is wrong. So why post?

Nick you are so wrong

Do I have to quote scriptures that are obvious

Miracles are never performed by the flesh but by the Holy Spirit, thus you do not witness miracles

Do you need the scripture for that too?