ECT For my Calvinist friends:

[Cross Reference]

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5 (KJV)

Please define what it means when saying Jesus was begotten of the "dead"? Is it the same "dead" you declare needed a gifted faith from God for believing for salvation; regeneration from a fallen condition maybe and of course, the dead cannot perform salvation from their own righteousness? Where does that leave Jesus if He was "dead" or perhaps you want to say Jesus wasn't Spiritually dead to wit I declare, neither were the many who died without being reconciled with God before Jesus made it possible.

"Death" or "dead" does indeed need to be made more clear, doesn't it, since fallen man was but separated from the possibily of intimacy with God. Enter the Blood of Jesus Christ that it perform a "Spiritual Handshake".. that by faith is it made certain to man.

 

[theophilus]

You have Calvinist friends?

:smack:

 

[Tambora]

You have Calvinist friends?

:smack:

I do.

 

[theophilus]

I do.

Me, too!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5 (KJV)

Please define what it means when saying Jesus was begotten of the "dead"?

Scripture tends to show the "first resurrection" is Christ's. Acts 26:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Don't know why you are trying to make the verse into some anti-Calvinism prop.

AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

Scripture tends to show the "first resurrection" is Christ's. Acts 26:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Don't know why you are trying to make the verse into some anti-Calvinism prop.

AMR

Don't know why some Calvinist believe that dead does not mean dead OR that it indeed does might mean something other than we might suppose. By my example using the word 'dead' with Jesus, I mean it to apply to the word 'destroy' as in those in eternal hell, will not die. . . will not be destroyed [actually cannot be destroyed] in the physical sense.

 

[nikolai_42]

Don't know why some Calvinist believe that dead does not mean dead OR that it indeed does might mean something other than we might suppose. By my example using the word 'dead' with Jesus, I mean it to apply to the word 'destroy' as in those in eternal hell, will not die. . . will not be destroyed [actually cannot be destroyed] in the physical sense.

This sounds like the question of whether Jesus died spiritually or not. Some call spiritual death separation from God - which indeed sounds like it could be wrapped up in Jesus' statement on the cross (My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me?) but most of the rest of the terminology on Jesus' death simply seems to imply Him going to the grave (...thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption). Either way, though, there is no way He could have been "destroyed" :

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:23-24

After all, what was (and is) He :

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26

 

[Cross Reference]

This sounds like the question of whether Jesus died spiritually or not. Some call spiritual death separation from God - which indeed sounds like it could be wrapped up in Jesus' statement on the cross (My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me?) but most of the rest of the terminology on Jesus' death simply seems to imply Him going to the grave (...thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption). Either way, though, there is no way He could have been "destroyed" :

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:23-24

After all, what was (and is) He :

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26

What does "destroy" the body and soul in hell conjure up in your mind?

 

[nikolai_42]

What does "destroy" the body and soul in hell conjure up in your mind?

Don't forget that the context to that awful situation is a "who"...not a "what" :

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

And it should be obvious that this is not Satan. Otherwise it would be a unique situation - for the Savior to implore men to fear the enemy of our souls.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Don't know why some Calvinist believe that dead does not mean dead OR that it indeed does might mean something other than we might suppose. By my example using the word 'dead' with Jesus, I mean it to apply to the word 'destroy' as in those in eternal hell, will not die. . . will not be destroyed [actually cannot be destroyed] in the physical sense.

Review this thread in its entirety:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?45335-Who-died-on-the-cross-a-Hall-of-Fame-thread

Better yet, go here:
http://theologyonline.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=45335

Then click on my username to see what I have to say about the topic.



AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

Don't forget that the context to that awful situation is a "who"...not a "what" :

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

And it should be obvious that this is not Satan. Otherwise it would be a unique situation - for the Savior to implore men to fear the enemy of our souls.

Context has no part in this. "Destroy" can mean several things or it can't.

 

[nikolai_42]

Context has no part in this. "Destroy" can mean several things or it can't.

If an army is being slaughtered and they are saved (as a whole) at the last minute by some miraculous intervention, does the savior of the army that is being routed suffer defeat at the hands of the foe in order to deliver - or does he rather overcome the enemy (having gone boldly into his territory and destroyed his fortress)?

 

[Cross Reference]

Review this thread in its entirety:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?45335-Who-died-on-the-cross-a-Hall-of-Fame-thread

Better yet, go here:
http://theologyonline.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=45335

Then click on my username to see what I have to say about the topic.



AMR

I tried all that I thought possible with poor results.

All I am asking is that unlike many who believe the soul of the one cast into hell is literatlly destroyed, I don't. I believe destruction in this case means never ending destruction. Your opinion please.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

All I am asking is that unlike many who believe the soul of the one cast into hell is literatlly destroyed, I don't. I believe destruction in this case means never ending destruction. Your opinion please.

Here you go...

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?113700-Heaven-when-do-we-go-there&p=4492357#post4492357

AMR