ECT Faith Without Works is Dead

[jsanford108]

Where are all the hypocrites who always appeal to James to try to prove that no one is saved apart from obedience? You know the ones, those who say that Paul just left something out when he answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Never fear, I am here.

For the record, I have been debating an atheist, and have not been checking any new threads out. I try to ignore faith alone or faith/works threads, as the discussions seem rather fruitless. As per my experience.

But it is you, Jerry. So here I am.

First off, I hold faith+works doctrine. So I am going to assume you classify me as a "hiding hypocrite."

A key misapplication to those who hold this doctrine is your quote "try to prove no one is saved apart from obedience." This is simply not true, and unbiblical. The very idea of grace is that humanity is undeserving of grace. For anyone to limit grace is ignorant of Scripture.

Faith alone however, is a faulty doctrine. As evidence by James. One need look no further than Martin Luther, who added the phrase "faith alone" to Scriptures (in Romans 3) in order to make his doctrine of sola Fide "Scriptural" and "Biblical."

The idea of "Grace alone" however is truly Scriptural and Biblical. The famous quote from Ephesians that "faith alone" subscribers declare as proof (which it isn't) actually demonstrates "grace alone," as means of salvation. Combine that faith is a grace, which our works help to justify, a logical conclusion of faith+works results.


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[God's Truth]

No you didn't!

And you never told us why we should believe your idea about the faith of Abraham since what Paul says about his faith directly contradicts your discredited idea.

You pick and choose who you will believe and who you won't!

And of course you just ignore what James said the the first chapter at verse 18. Is that verse not in your Bible? Or do you just not believe what it says?

What you are saying is not the truth. I see no reason to debate with you anymore. You just deny what I say. It is one thing to debate someone who goes against what I say, but it is another thing to debate someone who says I did not do something that I did.

James explains that Abraham's faith spoken of is that of faith with obedience.

James explains that that is why Abraham is called God's friend.

You say that the faith with works spoken of in James is a faith shown to man only.

Scripture proves you wrong for that faith with works Abraham had IS the fulfillment of the New Covenant, and it IS about God and not just man to man.

The works that Paul is speaking of that no longer save are the the ceremonial works, with circumcision as the sign and seal.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Same as the 3000 at the beginning--

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Check it out--

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

LA

Acts 2 is pre Acts 9... "Fail"

Pentecost was to the Men of ISRAEL...

 

[Patrick Cronin]

Gerry cited two essentials for salvation namely 'believing' and 'obeying'. In John 6:29 Jesus said "This is the WORK of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." In other words believing is a work that WE need to DO, namely to make the choice to accept Jesus as Lord.
The second essential you give is "to obey" which means that Christians should obey Jesus by behaving in the way He demands of us: "If you love me you will keep my commandments"(John 14:15)You can't really be saying that for a christian to live a good life is neither here nor there because it won't matter if you live a life of sin as you are going to heaven anyway.
Finally, no one is trying to suggest that our own puny efforts could bring about the remission of a single sin, without the saving blood of Christ. But Jesus also said "Unless you repent you will all perish as they did"(Luke 13:3)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Faith alone however, is a faulty doctrine.

So how do you explain the words of James in the following verse?:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

Is James not saying that a person is born of God by the word of truth and that must refer to believing the word of truth?

I cannot understand how someone can read these words of James and assert that no one is born of God just by believing the word of truth. That idea directly contradicts what James wrote at James 1:18.

And do we not see the same truth here?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

No matter how many times I look at the question and the answer I still see no reference to a person's "works" having anything to do with anyone being saved.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Acts 2 is pre Acts 9... "Fail"

Pentecost was to the Men of ISRAEL...

Of course it was, and we who are in Christ from all nations are joined with the elect of Israel and are the same through the blood of Christ--

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

LA

 

[jsanford108]

So how do you explain the words of James in the following verse?:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

Is James not saying that a person is born of God by the word of truth and that must refer to believing the word of truth?

I cannot understand how someone can read these words of James and assert that no one is born of God just by believing the word of truth. That idea directly contradicts what James wrote at James 1:18.

And do we not see the same truth here?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

No matter how many times I look at the question and the answer I still see no reference to a person's "works" having anything to do with anyone being saved.

You bring up an excellent point. Thank you for the response.

Let us examine the quote of James. "He chose...;" Here we see an act of grace. Not of our own doing. "Through the word of truth;" Is this referring to Christ Himself, or to the spoken Word? "That we may be a kind of first fruits;" being the first participants of the new covenant would secure the label "first fruits," no? Nothing in this quote denotes "faith alone." Rather, it demonstrates grace and participation in the new Covenant.

Look at your quote from Acts. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house." No one is denying faith saving here. Not me. Once again, there is no proof of "faith alone" though. I can collect a hundred verses that refer to faith saving, yet that does not mean "faith alone" is the logical conclusion. The Sola Fide defenders always argue from a conclusion than to a conclusion. Hence, you seeing "faith alone" in the verses you provided. And not seeing "worlds" at all?! How do you make James 2:24 fit within the parameters of Sola Fide doctrine?

A clear example of eisigesis; not exegesis.


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[Jerry Shugart]

Look at your quote from Acts. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house." No one is denying faith saving here. Not me. Once again, there is no proof of "faith alone" though.

So you admit that what Paul says here indicates that a person is saved when they believe:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

From this we can understand that according to Paul all a person must do to be saved is believe. Who can deny that?

But then you turn reason on its head by saying that there "is no proof of 'faith alone.'"

Of course since Paul said that a person is saved by believing then it is obvious that it takes only ONE thing to be saved--to believe. But you deny that.

 

[patrick jane]

So you admit that what Paul says here indicates that a person is saved when they believe:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

From this we can understand that according to Paul all a person must do to be saved is believe. Who can deny that?

But then you turn reason on its head by saying that there "is no proof of 'faith alone.'"

Of course since Paul said that a person is saved by believing then it is obvious that it takes only ONE thing to be saved--to believe. But you deny that.

Romans 10:17 KJV -

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Of course it was, and we who are in Christ from all nations are joined with the elect of Israel and are the same through the blood of Christ--

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

LA

You don't even understand the OT roots of this do you?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You don't even understand the OT roots of this do you?

More than you will ever know.

LA

 

[jsanford108]

So you admit that what Paul says here indicates that a person is saved when they believe:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

From this we can understand that according to Paul all a person must do to be saved is believe. Who can deny that?

But then you turn reason on its head by saying that there "is no proof of 'faith alone.'"

Of course since Paul said that a person is saved by believing then it is obvious that it takes only ONE thing to be saved--to believe. But you deny that.

That is not a denial of faith. Please read the rest of my post. It is very clear and concise in my reasoning.

Paul is talking about faith, yes. But he never says "only faith," or "faith alone." He does say "grace alone." Grace is not the same as faith.


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[Patrick Cronin]

It is a primary virtue of the Christian not to attribute sinful motives to people , especially those we have never met. James Dalton makes the sweeping condemnation of those who disagree with his interpretation of Scripture as "those who want to magnify their works and minimise God's". We know that Adam fell from grace by refusing to obey God's command. It was this sin(work) that made necessary the one and only sacrifice (of obedience) by Jesus on the cross.
It is this sacrifice which atones for human sin and without it no one can be saved, yet Jesus also said: "unless you repent you will all perish..". Repentance is a "work" which entails ending a sinful life and taking on the Christian life, whereas those who refuse to put their faith in Christ do not benefit from the Sacrificial death of Jesus. To be saved then, a person has to CHOOSE to do something very specific(a work), namely freely to put his faith in Jesus. Finally it is also true in reverse: 2 Peter 20-21 says "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning." We can freely throw away our salvation by the 'work' of sin.

 

[James Dalton]

It is a primary virtue of the Christian not to attribute sinful motives to people , especially those we have never met. James Dalton makes the sweeping condemnation of those who disagree with his interpretation of Scripture as "those who want to magnify their works and minimise God's". We know that Adam fell from grace by refusing to obey God's command. It was this sin(work) that made necessary the one and only sacrifice (of obedience) by Jesus on the cross.
It is this sacrifice which atones for human sin and without it no one can be saved, yet Jesus also said: "unless you repent you will all perish..". Repentance is a "work" which entails ending a sinful life and taking on the Christian life, whereas those who refuse to put their faith in Christ do not benefit from the Sacrificial death of Jesus. To be saved then, a person has to CHOOSE to do something very specific(a work), namely freely to put his faith in Jesus. Finally it is also true in reverse: 2 Peter 20-21 says "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning." We can freely throw away our salvation by the 'work' of sin.

You could have quoted me so I could see your words. Romans 4:4 says exactly what I was saying. You? You are confusing to read. To backslide is to know that Jesus saves and then attach a mans faults as an anti salvation. To backslide is to add to faith in Jesus and our Saviors work.

You seem offended that James actually demeans the worker and boaster. The saved boast in their failure, while magnifying Christ's Goodness.

Cool it with the block of nonsense next time and have the decency to quote me, instead of just talk about me.

 

[James Dalton]

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”​

Faith

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”​

Faith

Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.​

Faith, or the soul is "puffed up".

Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—​

Not righteousness of my own. It's Christ's righteousness. It's specific.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—​

Law and obedience are of self. The righteousness is of God.

Hebrews 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”​

Here is the clear call that "back sliding" is going past faith.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;​

This is righteousness "by faith". No way to redefine this.

Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?​

This goes on about the righteousness of God that fulfills all of our needs. In context, this brings faith alone and the result of God's recognition of it surpassing our abilities in the flesh. It is a faith alone statement that goes beyond question.

Hebrews 11:6-7 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.​

This is like Peter saying the Ark is like Jesus and being in Jesus by faith is like being in the ark.

Works? Noah built the ark. Jesus is the true Noah of our salvation. We step on the Ark, by Faith. You don't leave the ark and prove you can swim. That would be deadly.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.​

Believes. It even connects obedience to faith by the word (obey)

Jesus definition of work?

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

It is against scripture to add to faith and Christ's complete work.

The misuse of James is even exposed in the book of James. To use the verse being talked about at the beginning of this discussion to add Works to faith is reaching and puffed up.

I stand behind my statement about the Works group being puffed up and boastful in self.

 

[intojoy]

If a person denies the eternal security of their salvation, they have fallen from grace.


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