ECT Faith Without Works is Dead

[Jerry Shugart]

Let us look at what James wrote in the following verse in regard to how a person is born of God:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

From this we can understand that a person is born of God and saved when he believes the word of truth, specifically the gospel of Christ.Now let us examine what is said in the second chapter by James and there we can see he is speaking about how one's faith is viewed by other men:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

We can tell that James' argument is about what one person can know about another man's faith by what is said here:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?" (v.14).​

This is talking about what a man says about his faith to another person. And if a man tells another man that he has faith then the other man cannot know if that is true unless he sees evidence of good deeds which flow from faith. If no evidence is seen then as far as other men can see that faith can only be described as a dead faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (v.17).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

That is the only way which what James wrote in the second chapter can be understood where it doesn't contradict what Paul wrote here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where are all those people who continually quote these words of James in their failed attempt to prove that no one can be saved except by believing and obeying?:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (Jas.2:17).​

Why do those same people not ever address what James wrote in the same epistle:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

 

[James Dalton]

Amen! If a man goes before the Author of Eternity with any other Works than the Living Work of the Son of God, their dead works will show that their faith was in self, instead of the only Life that Saves.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where are all those people insist that no one can be saved apart from obedience?

Those same people invaiably cite James as their proof that no one is saved by faith alone.

But when given the chance to defend their ideas on this subject they cannot be found!

Why do these people not follow Paul when he said that he "kept back nothing that was profitable unto you" and "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:20,27)?

These same people never hesitate to put in their two cents worth of opinion on every subject but where are they now?

 

[James Dalton]

Like every person that wants to magnify their works and minimize God's, I believe that this evidence upsets them, so they are hiding in hopes that your words will fade away.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Like every person that wants to magnify their works and minimize God's, I believe that this evidence upsets them, so they are hiding in hopes that your words will fade away.

I think that you are right, James. It's a sad state of affairs when some people will not even defend the meanings which they put certain passages from the Scriptures--especially the meanings which they put on the passages they cite time after time in an effort to prove that faith by itself saves no one!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where are all the hypocrites who always appeal to James to try to prove that no one is saved apart from obedience? You know the ones, those who say that Paul just left something out when he answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[intojoy]

Where are all the hypocrites who always appeal to James to try to prove that no one is saved apart from obedience? You know the ones, those who say that Paul just left something out when he answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Playing with themselves


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[glorydaz]

Where are all the hypocrites who always appeal to James to try to prove that no one is saved apart from obedience? You know the ones, those who say that Paul just left something out when he answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Have no fear...God's UNtruth will appear.

She will "explain" and "explain" and she will never listen. NEVER.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Have no fear...God's UNtruth will appear.

She will "explain" and "explain" and she will never listen. NEVER.

At least I would like to hear her trying to explain how her interpretation of James 2 can be reconciled with what James says in the first chapter at verse 18 and what Paul said at Romans 4:1-3.

Then everyone will know that she has no respect whatsoever for what the Scriptures actually reveal about salvation as a result of faith and faith alone.

 

[God's Truth]

Let us look at what James wrote in the following verse in regard to how a person is born of God:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

From this we can understand that a person is born of God and saved when he believes the word of truth, specifically the gospel of Christ.Now let us examine what is said in the second chapter by James and there we can see he is speaking about how one's faith is viewed by other men:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).

We can tell that James' argument is about what one person can know about another man's faith by what is said here:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?" (v.14).

This is talking about what a man says about his faith to another person. And if a man tells another man that he has faith then the other man cannot know if that is true unless he sees evidence of good deeds which flow from faith.

If no evidence is seen then as far as other men can see that faith can only be described as a dead faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (v.17).

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man.

No way, for James says faith alone is dead and cannot save.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?


17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


That dead faith cannot be another kind of faith to God. That dead faith is not the most important kind of faith known, it is dead.

In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...

Paul is speaking about the Jews who worked at cleaning themselves for over 1,600 years. Those are the works that used to make the Jews clean, but do not anymore. Since Jesus came; we only have to have faith that his blood cleans us that is what cleans us now. We do not have to get circumcised and adhere to a dietary law, we do not have to do various washings and get animals to sacrifice day after day, year after year. No one has to do all those ceremonial/purification works anymore to be made righteous and clean, Jesus does the cleaning now. We still have to repent of those sins we want washed away.

He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

That is the only way which what James wrote in the second chapter can be understood where it doesn't contradict what Paul wrote here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).

Read real carefully what James says about Abraham’s faith. If you listen very carefully, you might catch it. James explains that that faith that justified Abraham, it is the kind of faith that had works.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

..........
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

…..
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As you can see from the scriptures that Abraham's faith with works is not just about man to man, because the scripture says it is why Abraham is called a friend of God.

You misunderstand Paul. Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey. See 2 Peter 316, and 17. Peter must have heard the confusion of faith alone that people insisted Paul was preaching. James too must have heard of the strange faith alone doctrine and that is why he made a point of writing about it being dead and not able to save.

 

[God's Truth]

Amen! If a man goes before the Author of Eternity with any other Works than the Living Work of the Son of God, their dead works will show that their faith was in self, instead of the only Life that Saves.

It isn't 'our' works we come to God with, it is Jesus' words that we do. It is never ever wrong to obey Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Where are all those people insist that no one can be saved apart from obedience?

Those same people invaiably cite James as their proof that no one is saved by faith alone.

But when given the chance to defend their ideas on this subject they cannot be found!

Why do these people not follow Paul when he said that he "kept back nothing that was profitable unto you" and "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:20,27)?

These same people never hesitate to put in their two cents worth of opinion on every subject but where are they now?

I didn't check the main boards for new threads. It is good to let me know when you make a thread for some serious debating like this.

 

[God's Truth]

Like every person that wants to magnify their works and minimize God's, I believe that this evidence upsets them, so they are hiding in hopes that your words will fade away.

I can't tell you how much I love talking about the scriptures. I know I am not the one hiding.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Where are all the hypocrites who always appeal to James to try to prove that no one is saved apart from obedience? You know the ones, those who say that Paul just left something out when he answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Same as the 3000 at the beginning--

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Check it out--

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No way, for James says faith alone is dead and cannot save.

You are totally confused, as usual. According to James a person is born of God by the word of truth, meaning that a person is born of God when they believe the gospel:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

You keep forgetting that "works" follow faith so therefore a person is saved at the very time he believes and then "works" follow. This is so simple but since it contradicts your discredited ideas it is way above your understanding.

Paul is speaking about the Jews who worked at cleaning themselves for over 1,600 years. Those are the works that used to make the Jews clean, but do not anymore.

Are you not even aware that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness before the law of Moses even came into existence and before he was circumcised? So Paul's words here have nothing at all to do with either of those things:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

Your interpretation of the meaning of what James wrote in the second chapter of his epistle directly contradicts what Paul wrote, that Abraham was NOT justified by works. Paul said that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness in the eyes of God. But you say that faith alone justifies no one before the LORD. According to your discredited ideas Paul was just flat out wrong when he answered the following question in the way that he did:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

You misunderstand Paul. Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey. See 2 Peter 316, and 17. Peter must have heard the confusion of faith alone that people insisted Paul was preaching. James too must have heard of the strange faith alone doctrine and that is why he made a point of writing about it being dead and not able to save.

Peter agreed with Paul because he certainly taught that a person is born of God by the word of God, specifically the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

From what I see from your teaching is that you are working hand in hand with the god of this age to blind the eyes of people to the truth of the gospel of grace:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

You better mend your ways because you are now headed for the day when you will be judged by the Lord Jesus by the gospel of grace (2 Ro.2:16) and your unbelief will condemn you. There will be no mercy for you in that day and you will have eternity to regret your dastardly deeds and heart of unbelief.

Time is running out on you, lady.

 

[God's Truth]

You are totally confused, as usual. According to James a person is born of God by the word of truth, meaning that a person is born of God when they believe the gospel:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

You keep forgetting that "works" follow faith so therefore a person is saved at the very time he believes and then "works" follow. This is so simple but since it contradicts your discredited ideas it is way above your understanding.



Are you not even aware that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness before the law of Moses even came into existence and before he was circumcised? So Paul's words here have nothing at all to do with either of those things:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

Your interpretation of the meaning of what James wrote in the second chapter of his epistle directly contradicts what Paul wrote, that Abraham was NOT justified by works. Paul said that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness in the eyes of God. But you say that faith alone justifies no one before the LORD. According to your discredited ideas Paul was just flat out wrong when he answered the following question in the way that he did:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Peter agreed with Paul because he certainly taught that a person is born of God by the word of God, specifically the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

From what I see from your teaching is that you are working hand in hand with the god of this age to blind the eyes of people to the truth of the gospel of grace:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

You better mend your ways because you are now headed for the day when you will be judged by the Lord Jesus by the gospel of grace (2 Ro.2:16) and your unbelief will condemn you. There will be no mercy for you in that day and you will have eternity to regret your dastardly deeds and heart of unbelief.

Time is running out on you, lady.

You left out the part that probably rebuked you the most, so since you didn't address it, I will post it again.



18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

..........
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


…..
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You left out the part that probably rebuked you the most, so since you didn't address it, I will post it again.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I have already addressed this and as usual you just ignore what I said and then pretend that I didn't address it. At verse 18 we can see that James is speaking about how one's faith is viewed by other men:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

We can tell that James' argument is about what one person can know about another man's faith by what is said here:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?" (v.14).​

This is talking about what a man says about his faith to another person. And if a man tells another man that he has faith then the other man cannot know if that is true unless he sees evidence of good deeds which flow from faith. If no evidence is seen then as far as other men can see that faith can only be described as a dead faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (v.17).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

That is the only way which what James wrote in the second chapter can be understood where it doesn't contradict what Paul wrote here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

 

[God's Truth]

I have already addressed this and as usual you just ignore what I said and then pretend that I didn't address it. At verse 18 we can see that James is speaking about how one's faith is viewed by other men:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

We can tell that James' argument is about what one person can know about another man's faith by what is said here:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?" (v.14).​

This is talking about what a man says about his faith to another person. And if a man tells another man that he has faith then the other man cannot know if that is true unless he sees evidence of good deeds which flow from faith. If no evidence is seen then as far as other men can see that faith can only be described as a dead faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (v.17).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

That is the only way which what James wrote in the second chapter can be understood where it doesn't contradict what Paul wrote here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

All you did was repeat yourself. You don't even use your own arguments, you use the words of another man.

You say James is speaking of faith from man to man---but I gave you scripture where James says it is man to God!

Abraham's faith that is spoken about IS FAITH WITH OBEDIENCE, and it is WHY Abraham is called the friend of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You say James is speaking of faith from man to man---but I gave you scripture where James says it is man to God!

No you didn't!

And you never told us why we should believe your idea about the faith of Abraham since what Paul says about his faith directly contradicts your discredited idea.

You pick and choose who you will believe and who you won't!

And of course you just ignore what James said the the first chapter at verse 18. Is that verse not in your Bible? Or do you just not believe what it says?