Nothing from the bible though?
"He decreed what He was to do..." would be in the bible if true...I would think.
Faith to believe on Christ !
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"He decreed what He was to do..." would be in the bible if true...I would think.
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith is persuasion. Its from the greek word peithō:
persuade
- to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
I did a little looking around and while I didn't find the quote you're thinking of, it was still worthwhile to look for it. I ended up reading a sermon by John Piper and an essay written by Charles Spurgeon and I'm glad that I did because its one thing to come here and pound amateurs into dust on these topics but when you read things that are written by people who were, during their time, at the very pinnacle of their chosen profession and who are, to this day, considered to be among the greatest minds that have ever held to the beliefs we call Calvinism, and you can see that you could easily defeat these "giants" of Calvinism just as easily as the mealy-mouthed cowards who won't even engage the debate here on TOL, it really let's you know that what you're arguing against isn't some amateurish misstatement of the doctrine or some intentionally misrepresentation of it but that the arguments you're making are against the actual things that these people believe and teach.
It would seem that I've been practicing my run-on sentence skills!
There's no time to edit! I hope that made sense!
God's Will and Man's Will by C. H. SPURGEON March 30th, 1862
The Sovereignty of God ‘I Will Accomplish All My Purpose’ by John Piper
Do you not even understand the point I was making?
The point is that Calvinism contradicts what the Bible says. Have you not been paying attention?
This one is definitely worth a read!
I've used it before against B57.
I am just trying to see which side of the fence you are walking on.
Faith is the result of persuasion.
It is the result of being convinced of something.
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith isn't a natural attribute of man, its a fruit of the Spirit that God works in the Justified to convince, persuade them of a invisible Spiritual reality.
Repeat after me....
"I commit the logical fallacy known as "begging the question" every time I open my mouth!"
So, I just read that article and it made my head nearly explode. All I see throughout the piece is talk that only makes sense from the perspective of Free Will theism if not outright Open Theism. He talks in the article as though we do whatever it is that he thinks faith entails but in the article I posted a link to this morning quotes the following from his church's Elder's Affirmation of Faith...This one is definitely worth a read!
I've used it before against B57.
3.1 We believe that God, from all eternity, in order to display the full extent of his glory for the eternal and ever-increasing enjoyment of all who love him, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his will, freely and unchangeably ordain and foreknow whatever comes to pass.
3.2 We believe that God upholds and governs all things — from galaxies to subatomic particles, from the forces of nature to the movements of nations, and from the public plans of politicians to the secret acts of solitary persons...
So then, is an act of faith somehow excepted from the "acts of solitary persons" or is this yet another example of the Calvinist psychosis that I've chirping about in the last several posts on this thread where a Calvinist seems both unaware of and incapable of preventing himself from contradicting one doctrine in order to state another. Actually, in the case of Piper, I don't think he's unaware of the contradiction because the very next sentence in that Elder's Affirmation reads....
"...all in accord with his eternal, all-wise purposes to glorify himself, yet in such a way that he never sins, nor ever condemns a person unjustly; but that his ordaining and governing all things is compatible with the moral accountability of all persons created in his image."
Notice that there is NEVER any explanation HOW it's "compatible with the moral accountability of all persons created in His image" but it's simply stated as an a-priori fact with no substantiation whatsoever. They simply declare that there is no contradiction and then move on as though their declaration is sufficient and that the issue has been dealt with.
People who sit in a pew on Sunday morning and simply and almost mindlessly absorb whatever the preacher happens to say might could be excused for believing such things because they trust their pastor but people like Piper (and b57) are utterly without excuse and will be held accountable on Judgment Day for such a gross dereliction of duty. How many millions have rejected Christianity as pure, weak-minded silliness on the basis of exactly this issue and the seemingly countless others like it throughout all of Augustinian doctrine whether protestant or otherwise. I know for a fact that this is the sort of thing that made Ayn Rand certain that Christianity was false. That's not to say that she would have been a Christian if not for Augustinian doctrine but it certainly gave her an easy out and handed her a very powerful weapon to wield against religion in general and Christianity in particular.
Clete
Yeah, that, or he definitely doesn't believe the same thing he believed back then..,
The Wright brothers had faith their air-plane could get off the ground.
Was that God's work?
Hitler attacked Russia with faith he could conquer them.
Was he justified by God?
Edmund Hillary had faith he could reach the top of Mt Everest.
Was that God's doing?
Folks from all over the world went to California in the 1840's and 50's to search for gold.
Was that God's work?
How many folks buy a Power Ball ticket every week?
Do they spend their money without having faith?
Or was it a fruit of the Holy Spirit?
Faith is a natural part of a human's life.
We believe and trust our parents from infancy, without the help of the Holy Ghost.
If that were not true, where are all the toddlers that don't trust their parents?
We believe we will not get fired at work every day when we drive to our jobs.
We believe we will get our paycheck at the end of every week.
etc., etc., etc.,
According to Calvinism, ALL OF THOSE THINGS are "God's works."
No, he hasn't changed his belief. He believes contradictory things and doesn't care about the contradiction.
Actually, it's not that he doesn't care about the contradiction. If he didn't care, then that extra statement in their Elder's Affirmation wouldn't be in there. He does care, but in the opposite way. He embraces the contradiction. He loves the contradiction. Accepting the doctrines as truth in spite of their contradictory nature is what he think it means to have faith. The more contradictions there are in his doctrine the more pious he thinks one has to be to look past them all.
What a weird world they decided to live in.
I guess it does free them from any guilt associated with what are NOT their own choices.
Can we legitimately charge a bank robber with theft if God made them do it?
I wonder how Calvinists feel about God aborting hundreds of thousands of babies?
Oh don't get me wrong, they believe everything is predetermined by God, but they put all the blame for evil back onto man, saying it's man's fault that God made them the way He made them.
It's utterly backwards!
That is their choice though, isn't it.
Which is ENTIRELY THE POINT! Why believe something that is the exact OPPOSITE of reality!? It's a completely broken way of thinking!
As JR said, that is indeed the entire point. Calvinist contradict their own doctrine practically with every breath they take. How many thousands of times a day does a person make a choice? How many times an hour does a person exercise his will?