Do you believe in it?
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Yes.
genuineoriginal
New member
It depends on when you think Eternal Security began/begins.
Yep.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Why?
Romans 5: 6-8 is why.
John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
jsanford108
New member
While I agree with you on most topics, Bright Raven, I do not believe in the doctrine of eternal assurance.
I know I will be the odd person out, but I am open to discussion on the topic.
I know I will be the odd person out, but I am open to discussion on the topic.
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Ephesians 1:12-13 KJV -
Is your problem area Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
jsanford108
New member
To be honest, it is several Scripture verses. Here are just three to add onto your provided passage from Hebrews:
Matthew 7
Matthew 13
Revelation 3
In these three chapters, we see Jesus declare that there are some who had believed in Him, yet are damned. How can this be, unless our faith needs more than just mere belief?
Feel free to address each one, my question, both, or neither. I am open to hearing your position and having an honest conversation.
Could you start with Matthew 7 and address the verses you see that are contradictory to Eternal Security. Then I will try to address those verses from a stand that is amicable to the doctrine.
jsanford108
New member
Absolutely, brother.
In Matthew 7, beginning with verse 17 through 27, we see Jesus speaking about faith/doctrine. We see Jesus say "By their fruits, ye shall know them." This shows that it is not by their belief we know them, but by their works. He goes on to say, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." It is clear that there are some who will have great belief, enough to prophesy His name and cast out devils, yet are not eligible for Heaven.
So, how can these who say "Lord, Lord" to Christ not be allowed to enter Heaven?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It depends. As the moniker for a doctrine - no. As the description of a concept, I think so. Hebrews 6 is a difficult passage for me to honestly dismiss as talking simply about final rejection of Christ (which it is) but I tend to believe it goes to the heart of something a little harder to define. Unless one believes in sinless perfection at salvation (which I don't), I think this describes certain sin that draws one away irrevocably. Sin that is (at its heart) unresolved unbelief. In that sense, it is a denial of Christ that shows (in the end) that such a one was never really (properly) Christ's to begin with. Frankly, I think Hebrews has a couple more troubling texts :
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3:12-14
Which chapter ends thus :
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 3:19
That is the first one that shows that there isn't security so much as perseverance. And a stern warning about the insidious effects of abiding sin.
And to make it more serious :
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 12:14-17
Not only is the issue of sin dealt with in the verse enjoining holiness, but it warns against certain pitfalls and the fact that repentance is not guaranteed even if it is genuinely sought. This sin of presumption upon the grace of God (both in verse 15 and in verse 17) are serious issues that need to be guarded against.
And in a broader sense, this passage speaks of presumption and lack of "eternal security":
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:18-22
Presumption and unbelief - perseverance being the bottom line in verse 22.
Absolutely.