ELECT Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God

7djengo7

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According to Calvinism hucksters, it is unwarranted and wrong to preach to everybody, indiscriminately, things like "Jesus loves you!" and "Jesus died on the cross for your sins!" This is because, according to Calvinism, Jesus does not love everybody, and He did not die on the cross for everybody's sins. And, according to Calvinism, God "from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain" that the elect--the Calvinists--should be entirely ignorant as to exactly which persons are elect and which persons are non-elect. Thus, Calvinism hucksters are forced to go about pleading embarrassing ignorance as to who, in particular, was atoned for, in Christ's "particular atonement", and who was not:

"I don't know that so-and-so is elect, so it would be foolhardy for me to tell him that Jesus loves him, as, to do so could involve me in speaking falsehood!"

But, these hypocrites will turn right around and preach, to everybody, indiscriminately, that everybody is on the path to destruction, the road to hell. Here, they readily cast off their scruples about the possibility of speaking falsehood, so that they can lord it over their marks,--the lost, the unconverted, the unregenerate--NON-ELECT and ELECT, alike--that they are hell-bound.

Jonathan Edwards wrote a sermon called Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God devoted to that very cause.

He starts off by quoting a Scripture verse, Deuteronomy 32:35:

To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

He then applies these statements to "every unconverted man" (which, of course, includes every unconverted ELECT man along with the non-elect). He writes:

[E]very unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is...and thither he is bound.

So, the Calvinism huckster, Edwards, preaches to every unconverted man (and thus to every ELECT, unconverted man) that he is bound for--that is, going to--hell. Now, according to Calvinism's Westminster divines:

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life...

What necessarily follows from this is that Calvinism's elect were predestinated to NOT go to hell. That is, that it could never be true that an elect person, even an unconverted one, is going to hell. Yet, Edwards has preached to ELECT persons (not knowing that they are elect) that they are thither-bound--that ELECT persons are going to hell!

But then, Edwards was something of a crank, for you will also find him preaching, in the same sermon, that, in hell, "the devil is waiting for them", and a bit later, he declared, about the affirmations he has given in his sermon, that:

"This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ."

So, according to Edwards, it has been the case of every unconverted, ELECT person, that the devil (at least as early as 8 July 1741) is in hell waiting for him/her.
 

7djengo7

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Why Must You Always Spam My Threads?

Why Must You Always Spam My Threads?

Listen and by God's grace...be saved.
https://youtu.be/TtHijgqceXo

To whom were you addressing your quasi-imperative?

A true clown is someone who goes about whining that (supposedly) some people preach that "Christ died for no one in particular", and then, turns around and proudly thunders meaningless quasi-imperatives to no one in particular. You're not a clown, are you? To whom, in particular, were you addressing your quasi-imperative?

Be saved from what? There is NO salvation in Calvinism. In Calvinism, the elect have never, even for a second, been in the slightest danger of hellfire from which to be saved, and the non-elect are predestined to suffer inexorable hellfire, from which they shall never be saved. Thus, the elect are not saved from hellfire, and the non-elect are not saved from hellfire, and, who does that leave?

If you think that you are elect in terms of Calvinism's doctrine of election, you must be an abject fool to be able to, with a straight face, say that you, at some point, had need of being saved from going to hell. If you think that you were predestined "from all eternity" to NOT go to hell, then you are an abject fool insofar as you can say that you have, at some point, needed to be saved from going to hell. One must be devoted to irrationality to be able to say that "I was predestinated to go to heaven, and thus, I was predestinated to NOT go to hell, yet, I was going to hell, and I needed to be saved from going there, and now I'm not going there."

Calvinism's elect have never been saved from hell, nor needed to be saved from hell, because they were predestined never to go there in the first place.
 

MennoSota

New member
To whom were you addressing your quasi-imperative?

A true clown is someone who goes about whining that (supposedly) some people preach that "Christ died for no one in particular", and then, turns around and proudly thunders meaningless quasi-imperatives to no one in particular. You're not a clown, are you? To whom, in particular, were you addressing your quasi-imperative?

Be saved from what? There is NO salvation in Calvinism. In Calvinism, the elect have never, even for a second, been in the slightest danger of hellfire from which to be saved, and the non-elect are predestined to suffer inexorable hellfire, from which they shall never be saved. Thus, the elect are not saved from hellfire, and the non-elect are not saved from hellfire, and, who does that leave?

If you think that you are elect in terms of Calvinism's doctrine of election, you must be an abject fool to be able to, with a straight face, say that you, at some point, had need of being saved from going to hell. If you think that you were predestined "from all eternity" to NOT go to hell, then you are an abject fool insofar as you can say that you have, at some point, needed to be saved from going to hell. One must be devoted to irrationality to be able to say that "I was predestinated to go to heaven, and thus, I was predestinated to NOT go to hell, yet, I was going to hell, and I needed to be saved from going there, and now I'm not going there."

Calvinism's elect have never been saved from hell, nor needed to be saved from hell, because they were predestined never to go there in the first place.
Listen and by God's grace...be saved.
https://youtu.be/TtHijgqceXo
 

MennoSota

New member
John 15
"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
 

MennoSota

New member
Listen to it. This thread is about Jonathan Edwards sermon. If people want to comment, then they should listen to it. See how much Edwards points to scripture for his comments. He isn't just making things up. He's speaking scripture to his listeners.
 

MennoSota

New member
I notice that no one dares to listen to Jonathan Edwards sermon. It is biblically sound, which seems to offend many who post on TOL.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
So what?
You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.
what is your point ?

Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
 

Rosenritter

New member
I notice that no one dares to listen to Jonathan Edwards sermon. It is biblically sound, which seems to offend many who post on TOL.

I'm not much for listening to speeches, but reading is a different matter. Would this link suffice?

http://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/edwards-sinners-in-the-hands-speech-text/

But not biblically sound. He starts to go wrong here:

[9] By the meer pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hinder’d by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God’s mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.
God is not arbitrary: his will is restrained by obligation of both his character and his promises. Edwards is painting a picture of an unchecked raging spirit and this song is of a different tenor than that presented to us by scripture.

Psalms 103:8-9 KJV
(8) The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
(9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

[15] 4. They are now the objects of that very
same anger and wrath of God that is expressed in the torments of hell: and the reason why they don’t go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as angry as he is with many of those miserable creatures that he is now tormenting in hell, and do there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth, yea doubtless with many that are now in this congregation, that it may be are at ease and quiet, than he is with many of those that are now in the flames of hell.

God does not express anger and wrath in torments in hell. The dead in hell are silent until the resurrection to judgment and are said to have ceased from troubling. There are none in "flames of hell" today. the fire of hell awaits the wicked after the judgment not before.

Job 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

2 Peter 3:7 KJV
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[42] 4. ‘Tis everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity: there will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery: When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all; you will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble faint representation of it; ’tis inexpressible and inconceivable: for who knows the power of God’s anger?

Edwards has no basis to say that sinners shall "suffer ... all eternity" and this expression of his (besides being no where found in scripture) goes against the express statements of God, that say that the wicked shall not have eternal existence, that they shall rather perish and shall never be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 KJV
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Summary: Edwards has painted a very different picture of God than what God himself has chosen to express in scripture, and fueled it with unbiblical falsehoods that are an affront to the character of God and Christ. Neither Jesus nor his apostles engaged in such fear-mongering...
 
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MennoSota

New member
what is your point ?

Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
Have you listened to Edwards sermon?
This topic revolves around God's choosing and it's relation to Edwards sermon.
Do you reject God's choosing?
 

MennoSota

New member
I'm not much for listening to speeches, but reading is a different matter. Would this link suffice?

http://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/edwards-sinners-in-the-hands-speech-text/

But not biblically sound. He starts to go wrong here:


God is not arbitrary: his will is restrained by obligation of both his character and his promises. Edwards is painting a picture of an unchecked raging spirit and this song is of a different tenor than that presented to us by scripture.

Psalms 103:8-9 KJV
(8) The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
(9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.


God does not express anger and wrath in torments in hell. The dead in hell are silent until the resurrection to judgment and are said to have ceased from troubling. There are none in "flames of hell" today. the fire of hell awaits the wicked after the judgment not before.

Job 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

2 Peter 3:7 KJV
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.



Edwards has no basis to say that sinners shall "suffer ... all eternity" and this expression of his (besides being no where found in scripture) goes against the express statements of God, that say that the wicked shall not have eternal existence, that they shall rather perish and shall never be no more.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 KJV
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Summary: Edwards has painted a very different picture of God than what God himself has chosen to express in scripture, and fueled it with unbiblical falsehoods that are an affront to the character of God and Christ. Neither Jesus nor his apostles engaged in such fear-mongering...
Here you go. If you refuse to listen, then read it.
There is no sense in discussing Edwards sermon if people refuse to read it.
The OP merely spews hatred without having people read or listen to Edwards sermon.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/edwards_jonathan/sermons/sinners.cfm
 

7djengo7

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I notice that no one dares to listen to Jonathan Edwards sermon. It is biblically sound, which seems to offend many who post on TOL.


I notice that you never dare try to defend Calvinism in your posts. Why is that?
I notice that you have not dared try to defend what I specifically attacked in Edwards' sermon. Why is that?

Since you affirm that Edwards' sermon is "biblically sound", we can now see that you actually want people to think that you believe, along with Jonathan Edwards, that the devil was in hell, waiting for people to join him there, at least as early as A.D. 1741. So, go ahead, now, and hand over to us your Bible proof-text(s) for that claim. Just cite some verse(s) from the Bible: any verse(s) will do, like, say, Esther 4:6, Matthew 10:28, Revelation 12:9, Song of Solomon 1:1, and Revelation 10:20. You know, just so as you can say (as you like to say) "See, I quote Scripture!" That's what someone called "Beloved57"'s entire forum activity consists of: the "any verse(s) will do"-method of merely dropping onto his reader (viz., someone called "Nanja") ream upon ream of cut-and-paste verses from the Bible that are either contradictory to, or entirely irrelevant to, his posted ravings. And, one can usually tell (if it weren't easy enough to tell by other means) just where his copy-and-paste ends and his own writing begins, since that is usually exactly where the deranged grammar and faulty spelling/punctuation begins. No matter what he posts, it appears that every single time "Beloved57" posts something, "Nanja" quickly tosses him a sardine or a Scooby-snack. In time, perhaps you, too, will acquire such a cult following for yourself. Maybe try more heavily spamming my posts with pictures of pretzels like you've been wont to do in the past; that's sure to get you your success!

Like "Beloved57", the more that you, "MennoSota", litter up theology forums with your spam, the more opportunities readers have to observe that you're obviously not the least bit interested in even trying to defend Calvinism, or even in trying to look like your trying to defend Calvinism. They can see that, as a matter of course, you seem to be actually endeavoring to make Calvinism appear--to as broad an audience as you can muster--at least as badly incoherent and self-destroying as it actually is, all the while pretending to be, yourself, a Calvinist. It's as though your strategy is to get people to think something along the lines of "Good grief, that MennoSota is a Calvinist, and if Calvinists come up with such asinine things to say, as MennoSota does, in their theology forum posts, I think I'd best look elsewhere than to Calvinism for reasonable discourse, since, clearly, Calvinism is rationally indefensible!" Now, I'm obviously more than OK with people vigorously attacking the irrationality known as Calvinism, with an aim to bring into as clear a public focus as possible its abject absurdity; however, I just can't approve of your trying to do so by pretending to be a Calvinist, since that is dishonesty.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Here you go. If you refuse to listen, then read it.
There is no sense in discussing Edwards sermon if people refuse to read it.
The OP merely spews hatred without having people read or listen to Edwards sermon.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/edwards_jonathan/sermons/sinners.cfm

"If people refuse to read it?" Where do you think I had the quotes from which I was responding? Do you not recognize the sermon in text? So maybe no one else will read it, but I did.
 
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