Theology Club: Does the shadow return bringing death with it?

[surrender]

Weren’t the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices shadows of what Israel was to expect in their Messiah? Isn’t the Levitcal priesthood with the high priest a shadow of Israel’s new High Priest? Surely, there won’t be another high priest, of the Levites, in the next dispensation when Israel has the perfect High Priest already. Aren’t the blood sacrifices for sin a shadow of the blood sacrifice Israel has in the Lamb? Surely, there won’t be another blood sacrifice in the next dispensation when Israel has the perfect Lamb already. Why would the reality fade and the shadow come back into focus after the dispensation of grace?

If I remember correctly, it is promised that the Levitical priesthood would be everlasting. Is that correct? Isn’t it possible to have a Levitical priesthood with Messiah as the High Priest? Isn’t it possible that the Levitical priesthood will institute the blood sacrifices without the use of animals but instead incorporate the Lamb into their services? No idea what that would look like, but couldn’t God choose to do that and still remain faithful to His promise of the everlasting covenant with Israel? I have a hard time believing animals will continue to experience death for all eternity when death is promised to be done away with.

 

[Tambora]

If I remember correctly, it is promised that the Levitical priesthood would be everlasting. Is that correct?

Yes.

Exodus 29 KJV
(9) And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.


Exodus 40 KJV
(15) And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.


Numbers 18 KJV
(7) Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
(8) And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.


Numbers 18 KJV
(19) All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.


Numbers 25 KJV
(13) And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.


Deuteronomy 18 KJV
(5) For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.

 

[surrender]

Thanks, Tambora. Do you have any opinion or insight on the rest of my post?

 

[Huckleberry]

Yes.

Exodus 29 KJV
(9) And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.


Exodus 40 KJV
(15) And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.


Numbers 18 KJV
(7) Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
(8) And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.


Numbers 18 KJV
(19) All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.


Numbers 25 KJV
(13) And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.


Deuteronomy 18 KJV
(5) For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.

All of those verses reference generations and descendants in relation to "everlasting". The two are linked together with Israel existing across generations.

I don't know much about revelations, end times and beyond but will there come a time when there are no more generations? No more children born? If so, wouldn't that matter here?

 

[Tambora]

Thanks, Tambora. Do you have any opinion or insight on the rest of my post?

Yes.
I'll try to get around to some other points you asked about.

 

[Tambora]

All of those verses reference generations and descendants in relation to "everlasting". The two are linked together with Israel existing across generations.

I don't know much about revelations, end times and beyond but will there come a time when there are no more generations? No more children born? If so, wouldn't that matter here?

For the sake of argument, let's say that there will be a "last" generation in which no more children are born.

I would suspect that the reason no more children are born is because all have been changed into immortal (never die) bodies.

If the last generation has become immortal (never die), then the last generation will be perpetual.
Thus, there is still a generation to carry on the priestly duties.

 

[Huckleberry]

For the sake of argument, let's say that there will be a "last" generation in which no more children are born.

I would suspect that the reason no more children are born is because all have been changed into immortal (never die) bodies.

If the last generation has become immortal (never die), then the last generation will be perpetual.
Thus, there is still a generation to carry on the priestly duties.

I guess it just seems to me to call attention to continuing generations and thus calls attention to that point in the future when death is passed away and there are no further generations.

Okay teach me on this one. Isn't Christ both the sacrifice and the priest here? So the priesthood can continue without any further sacrifice, couldn't it?

If yes, then I'm having trouble seeing the problem here. If Christ is the priest and the sacrifice, and if that sacrifice is eternal and final, then that priesthood continues eternally with Christ even though the sacrifices themselves stop (because the final one has been made).

Am I missing some point about the priesthood inherently requiring continual sacrifices being made?

 

[Tambora]

Most of this will depend on your perception of the new heaven and new earth.

There are two Greek words that express the thought of "new".

One has the concept of being "new" as with age.
Like a "new" born baby or a brand "new" car.
neos


The other has the concept of being "new" as in pristine, fresh, clean.
You could have one shirt that is older than another, but the older shirt could be pristine, fresh, clean; while the newer shirt (by age) could be ragged and dirty.
This word has to do with condition, not age.
kainos

Revelation 21 KJV
(1) And I saw a new (kainos) heaven and a new (kainos) earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
​

It's not that the old heaven & earth has been replaced by a newer (age wise) heaven & earth.
The old heaven & earth has just become pristine. Spruced up, like you would an older car to make it look like "new" (kainos).


After all, God made the earth to be inhabited.

Isaiah 45 KJV
(18) For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
​

And it is the earth that will be an inheritance.

Matthew 5 KJV
(5) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Psalms 37 KJV
(9) For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.



​

 

[Tambora]

Hi, Surrender.

I have a hard time believing animals will continue to experience death for all eternity when death is promised to be done away with.

I can agree that there will come a time when mankind will no longer die (have immortal bodies).

But I'm not so sure that we can say that there will be no more death of any kind at all for everything.

After all, a lot of God's creation thrives on death and decay.
The list is massive, but here is an example to get the gist of the matter --- termites .

Even if you were to imagine that all carnivorous critters will become vegetarians, then you are still going to have death as the leaves (or any part of the plant they feed on) will die.
For instance, if a rabbit gets a hold of one of your carrots in your garden, it will feed on it.
And if the rabbit gets full before it eats all of that carrot plant, the rest will fall to the ground, dead and will rot.

I am not aware of scripture that says that critters and plants will be changed with immortal bodies as mankind is promised.


Make sense?

 

[surrender]

Hi, Surrender.




I can agree that there will come a time when mankind will no longer die (have immortal bodies).

But I'm not so sure that we can say that there will be no more death of any kind at all for everything.

After all, a lot of God's creation thrives on death and decay.
The list is massive, but here is an example to get the gist of the matter --- termites .

Even if you were to imagine that all carnivorous critters will become vegetarians, then you are still going to have death as the leaves (or any part of the plant they feed on) will die.
For instance, if a rabbit gets a hold of one of your carrots in your garden, it will feed on it.
And if the rabbit gets full before it eats all of that carrot plant, the rest will fall to the ground, dead and will rot.

I am not aware of scripture that says that critters and plants will be changed with immortal bodies as mankind is promised.


Make sense?

It makes sense. But plants don't have a soul/nephesh. Animals do. The kind of death I'm talking about is the one Christ came to conquer and defeat. The kind of death that is a result of our sin and disobedience. God had to sacrifice the very first animal because of OUR sin. Why would that continue after the restoration of all things?

 

[Tambora]

It makes sense. But plants don't have a soul/nephesh. Animals do.

Not to sound flippant, but so what?

Scripture only records that it was mankind that God breathed into.

Genesis 2 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

Scripture does not record this for any animal.


Mankind, animals, and plants are all "alive".

But it was only mankind that was promised a bodily resurrection from death.

The kind of death I'm talking about is the one Christ came to conquer and defeat. The kind of death that is a result of our sin and disobedience.

OK.
But isn't it true that Christ only redeemed (bought) mankind?
Is there any instance in scripture of Christ shedding His blood to redeem an animal?

God had to sacrifice the very first animal because of OUR sin.

Are you sure it was a sacrifice (ie. killing of an animal)? :idunno:
I realize it is an assumption that many make, but can we definitively say it was done by killing an already existing animal when the text does not mention sacrifice or killing?

Genesis 3 KJV
(21) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
​

make
The Hebrew word asah.

Genesis 1 KJV
(7) And God made (asah) the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1 KJV
(16) And God made (asah) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1 KJV
(25) And God made (asah) the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1 KJV
(31) And God saw every thing that he had made (asah), and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
​

Why would that continue after the restoration of all things?

Like so many things that God does, we are not always told "why", but only that it will take place.
When God says something will take place, I feel confident that we can trust Him at His word.

So, I can only speculate as to "why".

My speculation would be similar to "why" the feast of the Lord (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, etc.) were performed.
They were performed as a memorial of Israel being coming out of Egypt.

There are several scriptures that state this, but here are a couple to see that it was done as a memorial.

Exodus 34
18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.


Deuteronomy 16
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.


Leviticus 23
(42) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
(43) That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
​

In other words, the feasts (which included sacrifices) were performed to commemorate something that had already taken place (ie. Israel coming out of Egypt).
God seemed to think that these feast with the animal sacrifices was an ideal way of memorializing what He had done for them.
These rituals glorified what God had already done for them.

If these things were done to commemorate something that had already taken place, then why couldn't the future also hold similar ideal memorials of all that Christ has done?

Just a thought.


BTW, thanks for asking some thought provoking questions!
It makes us dig.

 

[surrender]

OK.
But isn't it true that Christ only redeemed (bought) mankind?
Is there any instance in scripture of Christ shedding His blood to redeem an animal?

A case can be made from Colossians 1:19-20: “For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Are you sure it was a sacrifice (ie. killing of an animal)? …

I think from the text, it’s reasonable to think a sacrifice took place. Besides, my point is that the sacrifice of animals is the consequence of man’s sin. Christ came to defeat the death our sin brought to our world. That sin brought the death of animals, which pointed to the severity of consequences of our sin. If the sin problem is dealt with, there is no need for the death of animals any longer. Except, perhaps, for the reason you mention below: a memorial. But I continue having difficulty accepting God will allow that when He can remain faithful to His promise of an everlasting priesthood without it.

…When God says something will take place, I feel confident that we can trust Him at His word...

But God DOESN’T say that the death of animals is continual. God promises that the priesthood is continual.

…If these things were done to commemorate something that had already taken place, then why couldn't the future also hold similar ideal memorials of all that Christ has done?...

Because God can remain faithful to His promise without that bloody mess. We can have memorials of all Christ has done without them. We do now. Animals were slaughtered as a consequence of our sin. Our sin problem has been dealt with. Why have the consequence without the cause?

 

[Tambora]

Because God can remain faithful to His promise without that bloody mess.

And God can remain faithful to His promise with that "bloody mess".

The feast days that were a memorial of God bringing Israel out of Egypt included a "bloody mess" even though God had already fulfilled that promise.
So, I see no reason why we should consider it a "bloody mess" in the future.


A promise of God:

Jeremiah 33 KJV
(14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
(15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
(16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
(17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
(18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
(19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
(20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
(21) Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
​

And if one believes that Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48 concerns the millennium reign (which is looooooong after the death of Christ) .....

Ezekiel 44 KJV
(15) But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
​

I believe it.

Apparently, God does not see it as a "bloody mess".

 

[surrender]

And God can remain faithful to His promise with that "bloody mess".

So, you agree that God can remain faithful without it.

The feast days that were a memorial of God bringing Israel out of Egypt included a "bloody mess" even though God had already fulfilled that promise.

The memorials and sacrifices continued because sin had not yet been dealt with.

So, I see no reason why we should consider it a "bloody mess" in the future.

Of course, it was a bloody mess and it was supposed to be. Sin is serious and the consequences are a painful, bloody mess. Christ didn’t die a neat and tidy little death and neither did those animals. It was bloody and graphic and painful. There is now no reason for the blood and pain, because sin has been dealt with. To continue slaughtering animals is not only pointless, it’s an affront to Christ’s finished work.

 

[Tambora]

When is the millennial reign; before or after Christ died on the cross?

 

[surrender]

When is the millennial reign; before or after Christ died on the cross?

After. It is either now or after he returns. I'm not certain which at this point.

 

[Tambora]

When is the millennial reign; before or after Christ died on the cross?

After.

Exactly.
And yet scripture tells us sacrifices will happen during the millennial reign (ie. after Christ has already died on the cross).


So, I'm at a loss as to why you would think this ......

To continue slaughtering animals is not only pointless, it’s an affront to Christ’s finished work.

​

 

[surrender]

Exactly.
And yet scripture tells us sacrifices will happen during the millennial reign (ie. after Christ has already died on the cross).


So, I'm at a loss as to why you would think this ......

​

Where does Scripture say sacrifices will take place during the "millennial" reign?

 

[Tambora]

Where does Scripture say sacrifices will take place during the "millennial" reign?

I already posted it:

And if one believes that Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48 concerns the millennium reign (which is looooooong after the death of Christ) .....

Ezekiel 44 KJV
(15) But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
​

Do you not believe that Ezekiel chapters 40-48 are about the millennium?




And I posted this in the same post:

A promise of God:

Jeremiah 33 KJV
(14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
(15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
(16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
(17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
(18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
(19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
(20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
(21) Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
​

Do you not believe this is speaking of the millennium when Israel is restored?

 

[surrender]

I already posted it:

​

Do you not believe that Ezekiel chapters 40-48 are about the millennium?

And I posted this in the same post:

​

Do you not believe this is speaking of the millennium when Israel is restored?

I think Ezekiel’s temple was conditional. It’s not going to happen as written since the conditions weren’t met.

Ezekiel received this vision of the temple when Israel was in captivity. Ez. 40:4, “Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.” Why? Ez. 43:10-11, “…describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities…if they are ashamed of all that they have done…write it in their sight so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.”

Ezekiel was to declare all that he saw and then write it if they repented. They didn't repent. The condition of repentance was not met, so no temple.

Besides, Ez. 45:17 tells us that the sin offering is to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Ez. 46:20 says the offering was to sanctify the people. Christ’s sacrifice made reconciliation for and sanctified the people.

Jer. 33:18 speaks of burnt offerings and sacrifices. Doesn’t mean it has to be animals. KJV says “meat” but what Hebrew word in there is “meat”?