Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Rosenritter]

Was not Servetus an heretic? And was not heresy a capital crime in Geneva at the time?

If you wish to argue that heresy should not be a crime, or that if a crime, one not deserving of a death sentence, that would be OK. But to argue that the legal punishment of a crime is the same as murder seems to be a bit much.

Calvin was also a heretic with the sentence of death pronounced upon him by the Pope. A certain parable comes to mind when a servant who is forgiven much turns about and imprisons a man who has done little.

Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Additionally, Servetus was not arrested for speaking or preaching heresy within Geneva, he was singled out by Calvin because he had already determined that he already wanted the man dead. These are not the actions of a man with the spirit of God in him. And if we have not the spirit of God, we are none of his.

I think Calvin is a fine example of what happens when Calvinism has taken root, and given branch and blossom, for we shall know them by their fruits, shall we not?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvin was also a heretic with the sentence of death pronounced upon him by the Pope. A certain parable comes to mind when a servant who is forgiven much turns about and imprisons a man who has done little.

Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Additionally, Servetus was not arrested for speaking or preaching heresy within Geneva, he was singled out by Calvin because he had already determined that he already wanted the man dead. These are not the actions of a man with the spirit of God in him. And if we have not the spirit of God, we are none of his.

I think Calvin is a fine example of what happens when Calvinism has taken root, and given branch and blossom, for we shall know them by their fruits, shall we not?

Very good post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What?

That's my line!

You and AMR and the rest of Calvinism says that the sinful actions of mankind are all ordained by you god such that they cannot do otherwise, not me!

Clete

Very good post Clete.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Indeed . .

In the days of Calvin, the State ruled over the Church, and heresy was punishable with death according to State jurisdiction.

Servetus was warned by Calvin and the church of his extreme error, but there was little the Christians could do since Servetus remained unrepentant.

Well, then, it appears as if both Calvin and the church of that period of time was extremely BARBARIC. Wouldn't you say, Nang? And, if it is that they were BARBARIC, then, there's a distinct possibility, they had NOT the Holy Spirit indwelling them?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Was not Servetus an heretic? And was not heresy a capital crime in Geneva at the time?

If you wish to argue that heresy should not be a crime, or that if a crime, one not deserving of a death sentence, that would be OK. But to argue that the legal punishment of a crime is the same as murder seems to be a bit much.

Would you say the same about the laws regarding Jews under Hitler's regime, during WW2? For it was by the laws of the land (at that time) that Jews were being exterminated. Was it their punishment for being a Jew or would it be considered MURDER? I'd say it was, "Murder in the name of the State." I'd say the same for Calvin's time.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Your apostle.

Sometimes it seems as if Calvinists place Calvin on an even higher pedestal.

 

[Rosenritter]

Would you say the same about the laws regarding Jews under Hitler's regime, during WW2? For it was by the laws of the land (at that time) that Jews were being exterminated. Was it their punishment for being a Jew or would it be considered MURDER? I'd say it was, "Murder in the name of the State." I'd say the same for Calvin's time.

Imagine what Calvin could have accomplished if his rule extended over more than just Geneva. Like if he had the armies of the Third Reich at his command. There would be a massive purging of all heretics. How dare they disagree with Calvin when his writing represents the theological position of the State. For starters, every Jew would be a heretic, then anyone who disagreed with Calvin, and anyone who tried to shelter the heretics would be an enemy of the state too. How is Calvin different than Hitler in application?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Like I said....when cornered just ramble on and on poisoning the well and hoping no one will notice how desperate one has become. Arminians. Sigh.

Q.E.D.

AMR

We're ALL multi-faceted AMR. You have a few of my beliefs pegged. Congratulations. I tend to give you credit for a fine intellect and having exposed yourself to a higher degree of education. However, you and I could NEVER sit down and have a meeting of the minds considering our opposite views about the nature of God, His character, and intent.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No you didn't. And if you did then just reference the post #.

Aren't you interested in justifying your stance and backing your claim, and actually proving me wrong instead of just stating an opinion?



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So far as I'm concerned, the answer would have to be a resounding: "NO!" I assure you, no offense intended, of course.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

But that says that all will be judged in both cases.

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The "Unsaved" will stand before the judgment seat of God the Father. (Revelation 20:12) Whereas the Saved will stand before God the Son (Some call it the Bema Seat) and be given rewards or suffer the loss of rewards, however, there will be NO condemnation or Lake of Fire at this "Judgement."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Grand assumption. No what you speak of about the gift of discernment is false.

Discernment is the capacity to rightly divide the word of GOD or rather separation between the word of GOD and the babblings of man.

Peace

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Well, you have YOUR opinions and the written word of God has its. Let's wait and see who comes out on top, how's that sound to you?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, let's see, the title of this thread is: "Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?" I would have to reply the following: Calvinism makes its god seem unjust. Why do I say that? Well, when I read and study the Bible I see a different God and a different Gospel in the Written Word. Calvinists have (over hundreds of years) changed the character and intent of the REAL God of the Bible and tried to make Him fit into their "belief SYSTEM." Make no mistake, it is a "System of Believe." Not the true belief, however.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

A vast proportion of Calvinists is intelligent and well educated. None the less, they serve a certain form of Cult. A well-crafted counterfeit of the truth of God and His written Word.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists have this strange idea that nobody else but them is capable of understanding the mysterious of Calvinism. As if it were some secret that is passed down from one Calvinist to another. According to them, anyone NOT in their "circle" can possibly "Crack the Code." Their pat answer is always: "You don't understand Calvinism." That's their main line of defense.

 

[musterion]

Mormons say only the truly enlightened can understand holy things because they felt that burning in the bosom. Calvinists say only the quickened elect can understand the deep things of God, like reprobation.

Both groups are self chosen elites who feel sorry for people like me and condescend to us as darkened fools, but I'm okay with that.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

My advice to you would be, if you're being taught or preached to by a Calvinist, run away from them as fast as possible, grab your Bible and start reading/studying the writings of the Apostle Paul. (Romans through Philemon.) Then, find yourself a small Non-Denominational community church which does not adhere to Calvinism, Pentecostalism, or water baptism and works as your way to Heaven. Avoid these types of churches.

Find a church that preaches salvation by hearing the Gospel, and placing your faith in Christ as your Savior.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Mormons say only the truly enlightened can understand holy things because they felt that burning in the bosom. Calvinists say only the quickened elect can understand the deep things of God, like reprobation.

Both groups are self-chosen elites who feel sorry for people like me and condescend to us as darkened fools, but I'm okay with that.

Nang believes one must first be "regenerated" then, receive saving faith as one of the "Elect," chosen before the foundation of the world. Folks, these types are members of a very old Cult.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Imagine what Calvin could have accomplished if his rule extended over more than just Geneva. Like if he had the armies of the Third Reich at his command. There would be a massive purging of all heretics. How dare they disagree with Calvin when his writing represents the theological position of the State. For starters, every Jew would be a heretic, then anyone who disagreed with Calvin, and anyone who tried to shelter the heretics would be an enemy of the state too. How is Calvin different than Hitler in an application?

The ONLY difference is the number of people Hitler murdered as opposed to the number of people Calvin was culpable in "Execution Murders." They both (Hitler and Calvin) had a similar mindset, in some respects.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

John Calvin (Where the Calvinists get their name) was an evil/wicked and sadistic man. His nickname of sorts was "The Pope of Geneva." He left the Catholic church, however, held on to some of their doctrines.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I really don't believe Calvinists like the idea of people KNOWING Calvin's history.