Theology Club: Does Almighty God have FOREKNOWLEDGE of All?

[vfirestormv]

I believe, Yes...

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Act_2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[vfirestormv]

Jesus also not only knew that Peter would deny Him but also how many times he would deny Him and exactly when he would deny Him.

Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The (rooster) shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

 

[Lon]

God does not know that which does not exist, and as such cannot be known.

He even knows 'possibilities' such that Open Theists are inconsistent on even this. See Delmar for instance:

Open view Christians agree that He knows us on a cellular level, could see our potential by glancing at our DNA before our bodies took shape, etc

Many Open Theists 'agree' He would know such things that do not exist but in potentiality, that He knows even that which doesn't exist, thus Open Theists need to keep working on a better definition. The one above is not exacting enough to be an Open Theist paradigm. It is rather an inaccurate annecdote and sentiment.

 

[Totton Linnet]

He knew what is in man because he is one of them and had to overcome the things of man in Himself.



Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You think then that Christ had sin in His members....

 

[Desert Reign]

It's simple.
Jesus is and was the perfect representation of God. By perfect we mean that everything that we need to know and can know about God is found in Jesus.

Jesus did not know quite a few things. Who touched me? He also knew a lot of things that you would not expect an ordinary man to know. But it remains that he did not know a lot of things.

Since Jesus is God's perfect representation, then knowing everything cannot be a necessary attribute of God.

And this is only a natural conclusion because perfection is not found in how much you know but in how much you love and in how much you are righteous. The Bible says that Jesus was made perfect through what he suffered, not through how much he knew. This kind of attribute is just a projection of man's power hungry tendencies. We want God to be like us rather than ourselves to be like him. If we really strove to be like him, believing him to be all knowledgeable, then we would be busy trying to get as much crammed into our poor brains as possible. But that will not make us good will it? Neither does it make God good.

 

[Lon]

It's simple.
Jesus is and was the perfect representation of God. By perfect we mean that everything that we need to know and can know about God is found in Jesus.

Jesus did not know quite a few things. Who touched me? He also knew a lot of things that you would not expect an ordinary man to know. But it remains that he did not know a lot of things.

Since Jesus is God's perfect representation, then knowing everything cannot be a necessary attribute of God.

And this is only a natural conclusion because perfection is not found in how much you know but in how much you love and in how much you are righteous. The Bible says that Jesus was made perfect through what he suffered, not through how much he knew. This kind of attribute is just a projection of man's power hungry tendencies. We want God to be like us rather than ourselves to be like him. If we really strove to be like him, believing him to be all knowledgeable, then we would be busy trying to get as much crammed into our poor brains as possible. But that will not make us good will it? Neither does it make God good.

Simplistic, not simple.

DR proposition 1) Christ didn't know everything (true or false?) I'd say false, but then again some Open Theists think God didn't know where Adam was when He asked "Where are you?" - Such is an 'assumption', DR. Such is simplistic, but not simple :nono:
DR proposition 2) Jesus didn't know who touched Him (true false?) Again, a DR assumption. "Whose turn is it?" might not mean at all that I don't know whose turn it actually is. A question in no way by any necessity, necessitates let alone even implies, a lack of cognition. Such is a HUGE Open Theist supposition. I reject it outright because it is literally impossible to defend it from any text. We all know that questions do not at all imply lack of cognition. They "may" at times but ONLY IF the text says afterwards "I didn't know." Otherwise, you should not guess as to my or any other's cognition.
DR proposition 3) Jesus is the perfect representation of God (true false?) Lorenzo Snow (LDS) said "As man is, God was. As God is, man may become." Jesus, in the flesh was ALSO a representative of man with man's infirmities BUT was always God. We must necessarily be careful not to overdraw extrapolations of logical points when considering such. We should not, however, contradict scriptures. Lorenzo Snow was wrong.

DR's logical therefore proof :. "God doesn't know all things." (true or false?) Patently and demonstrably false as a proof statement,
(Lon's) therefore:. simplistic, rather than 'simple.'

 

[intojoy]

Is there anything God does not know?

 

[patrick jane]

Is there anything God does not know?

finally, your real picture ! for the OP ? like we know what God knows ? i think God knows anything God wants to know. mostly the bigger picture i imagine. God Works All Things Towards Good. even when we don't see it. as far as God knowing the exact moment i will fart ? not so much, maybe. just sayin' - :comeout:

 

[patrick jane]

The question is how does God know? William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"Thereis properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

John Wesley adds to this thought in the following way:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle’s words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).​

without even reading or hearing any of the above mentioned "mental giants", i came to alot of the same conclusions on my own. except the part where i go out and start a church or a following. perhaps, at that time in history those were different ideas to many, but they certainly aren't NEW and uniquely original thoughts. Jesus Christ and The Apostles, especially Paul say it best. and the patriarchs and prophets, of course. when it help's a person's understanding it's great. otherwise, it can be misleading. i have stated many times that Time is meaningless to God. man measures time. am i a genius ? i promise, i thought that before i heard anyone say it. many will disagree with the time thing. i also personally think, pre-destination of EVERY DETAIL is an insult to God. and God's greatest creation. US. God said it, not me -atrol:

 

[journey]

finally, your real picture ! for the OP ? like we know what God knows ? i think God knows anything God wants to know. mostly the bigger picture i imagine. God Works All Things Towards Good. even when we don't see it. as far as God knowing the exact moment i will fart ? not so much, maybe. just sayin' - :comeout:

This has been reported and is not appreciated at all. I hope that you get some time off to think about this.

 

[intojoy]

God is unknowable kids. He is only knowable in what he chooses to reveal about himself.

 

[patrick jane]

God is unknowable kids. He is only knowable in what he chooses to reveal about himself.

tell 'em papadaddyo ! !:jazz:

 

[Ardima]

@OP, yes

(Job 36:5) For truly my words are not false: He that is perfect in knowledge is with you.

 

[Lighthouse]

@OP, yes

(Job 36:5) For truly my words are not false: He that is perfect in knowledge is with you.

Knowledge is not foreknowledge.

 

[Ardima]

Knowledge is not foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is a subset of knowledge. Foreknowledge depends on the the contingent perspective of time. God is not bound by time. He is in all places in time, in every point in time, all at the same time. He knows all that is past, present, and future. There is no need for a descriptor for the perfect (exhaustively complete) knowledge that God possesses. The descriptor (fore) is only used that we, as contingent beings who are bound by time, may understand that specific subset of His knowledge.

 

[Lighthouse]

Foreknowledge is a subset of knowledge. Foreknowledge depends on the the contingent perspective of time. God is not bound by time. He is in all places in time, in every point in time, all at the same time. He knows all that is past, present, and future. There is no need for a descriptor for the perfect (exhaustively complete) knowledge that God possesses. The descriptor (fore) is only used that we, as contingent beings who are bound by time, may understand that specific subset of His knowledge.

And the Scripture that supports this argument?

 

[Ardima]

And the Scripture that supports this argument?

This is based off of the attributes that God is known to have, and has to have, to be eternal. Those attributes are as follows: omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and immutibility. I am at work right now and do not have access to a bible for the exact references, but a quick google search on the attributes of God will give you plenty of scripture in support of my position. And furthermore, in order for Him to be our Creator (for us to exist) He must be all those things.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Foreknowledge is a subset of knowledge. Foreknowledge depends on the the contingent perspective of time. God is not bound by time. He is in all places in time, in every point in time, all at the same time. He knows all that is past, present, and future. There is no need for a descriptor for the perfect (exhaustively complete) knowledge that God possesses. The descriptor (fore) is only used that we, as contingent beings who are bound by time, may understand that specific subset of His knowledge.

Very good!

 

[Lighthouse]

This is based off of the attributes that God is known to have, and has to have, to be eternal. Those attributes are as follows: omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and immutibility. I am at work right now and do not have access to a bible for the exact references, but a quick google search on the attributes of God will give you plenty of scripture in support of my position. And furthermore, in order for Him to be our Creator (for us to exist) He must be all those things.

My response to you was one of the posts lost in the reset and I didn't remember it when I came back.

So I will respond now: Google provided no Scriptures. Do you have any?

 

[Bright Raven]

Unless you are an open theist.