ECT Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one?

[andyc]

Faith that originates from our reasoning of the scriptures, and a supernatural faith enabling us to believe spiritual truths?
Actually if we include the ministry gift of faith in 1Cor 12:9, we could say that there are three possible faiths in the bible.

This is something that I've been spending a lot of time meditating on recently, so I'd be interested to read your thoughts on it. We see many examples in the bible where people are commended for their faith, but we also find other situations where faith appears to have been gifted.

Let's first look at Paul's condition for a person to be saved......

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now let's look at Thomas.......

John 20:25 & 29
[Thomas] said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe....................... Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas' faith seems to be based on human reasoning here, which also required an example of physical proof, although we must add that he was rebuked for requiring proof.

Now let's look at Peter.....

Mat 16:16-17
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Peter's confession here does not seem to have been inspired from human reasoning, but as a result of divine revelation.

Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing, he doesn't say that faith comes from God. So what does this mean?
It appears to me as if the word of God is like a sperm, and the human heart which is governed by our will, is the egg. When the word of God is received within our heart, a faith conception takes place. This would suggest that faith in God is impossible without the word of God, and it is also suggests that the word can be restricted from reaching our heart through our human will. Thomas said, "I will not believe".

1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

It's interesting when we read what James says.....

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

James suggests here that we were born of God by his will and through his word. Without contradicting other passages, does James mean here that it was God's will to save those who were willing to receive his word?

Psalms 107:20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions.

The bible suggest that faith is impossible without God's word gifted to us, and that God created us with a heart that can receive his word, but also with a will that can reject it.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

They heard the word physically, but chose not to receive it in their hearts where faith could be conceived. God sent his word to heal them, but they would not receive it.
Now, all this seems conclusive until we read Isaiah 6:9-10....

Isaiah 6:9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."

John 12:41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

If we are to take this literally it would be a blow to my conclusion above, because according to Isaiah it appears as if God told Isaiah to go and blind and deafen Israel so that they could not hear and and understand the word in order to be healed (saved).

I'll end this by having a look at what Jesus has to say about this passage from Isaiah......

Matthew 13:9-15 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

Now it's essential to understand that this is what Jesus is referring to about what he goes on to explain, because if you really meditate on this honestly, he's really talking about the need to incline the eyes and ears of our heart to see and hear. Otherwise the new covenant would not be based on faith.

10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.12 Whoever has.....

Whoever has what?
A willingness to hear and receive.

.....will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have.....

A willingness to see and hear.

......, even what he has......

The promises to those who are of the seed of Abraham (kingdom of God).

......will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

So according to Jesus, because the people did not incline their ears to hear the word of God, and their eyes to see the miracles, God hardened their heart. In other words, God would not make them believe, but rather if they would not incline themselves to hear and see, he made it so they could not understand (John 6:30). They wanted Jesus to do something spectacular, but the truth was in his word, and the word wasn't good enough for them so God hardened their heart.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

Discuss.........

 

[bybee]

Faith

Faith

Faith that originates from our reasoning of the scriptures, and a supernatural faith enabling us to believe spiritual truths?
Actually if we include the ministry gift of faith in 1Cor 12:9, we could say that there are three possible faiths in the bible.

This is something that I've been spending a lot of time meditating on recently, so I'd be interested to read your thoughts on it. We see many examples in the bible where people are commended for their faith, but we also find other situations where faith appears to have been gifted.

Let's first look at Paul's condition for a person to be saved......

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now let's look at Thomas.......

John 20:25 & 29
[Thomas] said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe....................... Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas' faith seems to be based on human reasoning here, which also required an example of physical proof, although we must add that he was rebuked for requiring proof.

Now let's look at Peter.....

Mat 16:16-17
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Peter's confession here does not seem to have been inspired from human reasoning, but as a result of divine revelation.

Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing, he doesn't say that faith comes from God. So what does this mean?
It appears to me as if the word of God is like a sperm, and the human heart which is governed by our will, is the egg. When the word of God is received within our heart, a faith conception takes place. This would suggest that faith in God is impossible without the word of God, and it is also suggests that the word can be restricted from reaching our heart through our human will. Thomas said, "I will not believe".

1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

It's interesting when we read what James says.....

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

James suggests here that we were born of God by his will and through his word. Without contradicting other passages, does James mean here that it was God's will to save those who were willing to receive his word?

Psalms 107:20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions.

The bible suggest that faith is impossible without God's word gifted to us, and that God created us with a heart that can receive his word, but also with a will that can reject it.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

They heard the word physically, but chose not to receive it in their hearts where faith could be conceived. God sent his word to heal them, but they would not receive it.
Now, all this seems conclusive until we read Isaiah 6:9-10....

Isaiah 6:9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."

John 12:41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

If we are to take this literally it would be a blow to my conclusion above, because according to Isaiah it appears as if God told Isaiah to go and blind and deafen Israel so that they could not hear and and understand the word in order to be healed (saved).

I'll end this by having a look at what Jesus has to say about this passage from Isaiah......

Matthew 13:9-15 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

Now it's essential to understand that this is what Jesus is referring to about what he goes on to explain, because if you really meditate on this honestly, he's really talking about the need to incline the eyes and ears of our heart to see and hear. Otherwise the new covenant would not be based on faith.

10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.12 Whoever has.....

Whoever has what?
A willingness to hear and receive.

.....will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have.....

A willingness to see and hear.

......, even what he has......

The promises to those who are of the seed of Abraham (kingdom of God).

......will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

So according to Jesus, because the people did not incline their ears to hear the word of God, and their eyes to see the miracles, God hardened their heart. In other words, God would not make them believe, but rather if they would not incline themselves to hear and see, he made it so they could not understand (John 6:30). They wanted Jesus to do something spectacular, but the truth was in his word, and the word wasn't good enough for them so God hardened their heart.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

Discuss.........

I have thought about this also. I believe there is only one faith but more than one way for humans to apprehend faith.
Some are brought to faith through their intellect. Some are brought to faith through their hearts. Most of us employ both our hearts and our minds so that through the grace of God, faith in God can indwell our spirits.
I have taken the Isaiah admonishment to have been a sort of "I throw my hands up with you people". There are those who wilfully continue in a lifestyle of sin regardless of evidence or consequences.
Good questions Andy.

 

[andyc]

I have thought about this also. I believe there is only one faith but more than one way for humans to apprehend faith.
Some are brought to faith through their intellect. Some are brought to faith through their hearts. Most of us employ both our hearts and our minds so that through the grace of God, faith in God can indwell our spirits.
I have taken the Isaiah admonishment to have been a sort of "I throw my hands up with you people". There are those who wilfully continue in a lifestyle of sin regardless of evidence or consequences.
Good questions Andy.

It does make you think, doesn't it. Those who claim that faith is a gift, certainly do have a case with some examples in the bible. What appears to me to be a key factor is that some people are not willing to incline their ear to hear, particularly if they don't respect the person they are hearing it from. And God has chosen the despised and foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Therefore God has chosen the people who the world can't respect, to preach his word. This means that all the emphasis is on the glorious truth of the word of God, and the people they hear it from shouldn't make a difference.
And as you say, what about those who are mentally unable to initially reason out the gospel? God would somehow have to drop the truths into their spirit, just like what appears to have happened with Peter.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

According to Scripture, the flesh profits nothing.
Likewise, "trust not to your own understanding."
Likewise, 'whosoever trusts man/mankind/flesh, I(Yhvh Elohim) curse'.
i.e. no one can through study, nor through intellect, nor through their hearts ("the heart is more deceitful than anything"), gain faith, earn faith, deserve faith.
thankfully, Scripture is Written "it is a gift of Abba Yhvh, through sheer grace - it cannot be earned nor bought nor found outside of Him"
...
Still, DO "study to show thyself approved." . This is True also. Just realize that apart from revelation granted by Abba in sheer Grace nothing is learned that profits or benefits.
That's why so many argue on tol(and elsewhere). They in error think
that
contrary to Scripture
man's studies, or man's efforts, or man's anything, is worth something apart from Yahshua. That is patently not possible.
Man's scholarship is useless as putrid cow dung. (see how the purple harlot imagines she is so glorious, using all of man's intellect ! Yet she is so damned, completely, without remorse, and without repentance)
So
man's intellect is useless to acquire faith - no amount of time matters.
That
does not at all mean to not search for faith, for truth, for Abba - rather
let that hunger for True Bread of Life and thirst for True Righteousness
grow and grow and grow desperately(as it should) until you finally turn to Abba completely and renounce the flesh and your sin and the world to Live His Life.
Then
you will no longer desire the lust of the flesh(sex), the lust of the world(religion/rcc/lthrn/bptst/chrsmtc/pltcs/rpblcn/dmcrt/cptlsm), nor the lust of the eyes(greed,envy,wanting anything that is not yours).
It(true faith by grace)
is GLORIOUS! but so rare - treasure it beyond all else if you find it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....Therefore God has chosen the people who the world can't respect, to preach his word. This means ... the people hear it from shouldn't make a difference.....

However, it makes all the difference in the world. Look (on tol) how many "hear" it from a priest, or a pastor, or a teacher,
and
so they go along with what is not True Faith, but they "hear" it, they go along with it,
maybe because they were raised that way and go with their family, or
all
their friends go, or someone they trust(in error) and want their approval.
as
Yahshua the Master and Svr said "beware the hypocrisy of the religious leaders - GUARD YOUR HEART from it."

 

[Lighthouse]

There is only one faith. It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

 

[chickenman]

Aside from the faith of Christ by which we are made just, I see three types of faith, in scripture, that an individual has:

Faith that an individual chooses to have
Some of the Corinthian believers could have believed in the gospel in vain (I Cor. 15:2). So they were responsible for believing...for having faith. This type of faith is seen many times throughout the scriptures.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also... Rom. 4:11

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints... Col. 1:4

Etc.
​

People have to make a choice to believe in Jesus Christ...to have faith in His finished work.

Faith that the Lord gives an individual to enable the carrying out of spiritual gifts
Paul wrote to the Romans that they had gifts differing from one another. Gifst like prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhorting, giving, etc. (Rom. 12:6-8). And he told them to carry out those gifts according to the proportion of faith. It looks to me that this was a faith that was given them to aid them in the specific gifts they were given.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom. 12:3
​

So a person who was gifted with giving (12:8), e.g., would also be given a measure of faith to be able to give with simplicity. I guess (because it's not presented clearly, or I'm just not seeing it clearly) that this means that regardless of his circumstances, he would have faith to know that his giving would be effective, that he would be provided for, or whatever.

Supernatural faith
The things listed in I Corinthians 12 aren't called ministry gifts (although that doesn't mean they aren't, necessarily). They're called manifestations of the Spirit. And they would cease with the coming of "that which is perfect". I know we disagree on what that is, so I'm only telling you the way I see it. Those gifts pertained to God's program for Israel, being rooted in the kingdom program. With its passing, they would still be useful as God was still dealing with Israel throughout the Acts period. But then when God would be completely done with Israel, the gifts would no longer have a place.

I think these following passages paint a pretty good picture of what was the manifestation of the Spirit as a gift of faith:

And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:5-6
​

A mustard seed is a tiny seed that just becomes something else. It doesn't worry and fret. It just grows into something else. Faith of a mustard seed is a faith that doesn't concern itself with how. It just does.

And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matt. 17:14-20
​

Jesus wasn't making a point about moving mountains. He was making the point that to cure the man's son, they needed a faith that would simply DO and not try to figure out HOW. A faith like that could move mountains, He said.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt. 21:21-22
​

Causing the fig tree to wither shouldn't be anything astonishing for the one who had faith of a mustard seed. They didn't yet have that faith. But it would be given to them supernaturally later. This what it would boil down to:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matt. 6:25-34
​

The supernatural gift of faith would give the apostles and disciples the ability to remain focused on the task at hand during the time of Jacob's Trouble, without worrying about how they would be sustained during that time. Just as God supernaturally provided food for Israel and supernaturally kept their shoes from wearing out in the wildnerness, so too, during Jacob's Trouble, would He supernaturally provide for them. He even told them to pray "give us this day our daily bread" with the promise to provide it to them...just as He did centuries prior that.

Like this and the other supernatural gifts like tongues and healing, they still remained during the Acts period, with Gentiles being gifted with them. The things that were for Israel were given to Gentiles, demonstrating to Israel that God had judged the nation and turned to the Gentiles.


Many words, but only 2 cents...

Randy

 

[chickenman]

There is only one faith. It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

Yes, but that's generic. We are justified by Christ's faith. Yet we also have faith. And there's a faith that is given (Rom. 12). Generally speaking, you're right on. But it also gets more specific than that.

 

[bybee]

Faith

Faith

It does make you think, doesn't it. Those who claim that faith is a gift, certainly do have a case with some examples in the bible. What appears to me to be a key factor is that some people are not willing to incline their ear to hear, particularly if they don't respect the person they are hearing it from. And God has chosen the despised and foolish things of the world to shame the wise. Therefore God has chosen the people who the world can't respect, to preach his word. This means that all the emphasis is on the glorious truth of the word of God, and the people they hear it from shouldn't make a difference.
And as you say, what about those who are mentally unable to initially reason out the gospel? God would somehow have to drop the truths into their spirit, just like what appears to have happened with Peter.

Yes indeed! And of course Saul of Tarsus believed in God intellectually but he appeared to have a heart of stone. So our Lord had to blind him to get him to open the "eyes of his heart", so to speak.

 

[andyc]

Aside from the faith of Christ by which we are made just, I see three types of faith, in scripture, that an individual has:

Does this mean that you see at least four types of faith in scripture?

Faith that an individual chooses to have
Some of the Corinthian believers could have believed in the gospel in vain (I Cor. 15:2). So they were responsible for believing...for having faith. This type of faith is seen many times throughout the scriptures.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also... Rom. 4:11​

It starts to become confusing in the sense that you divide the new testament up into various dispensations, so I have to try to think like a MADist in order to understand you're saying here. Are you saying that the Corinthians were not justified by faith?

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints... Col. 1:4

People have to make a choice to believe in Jesus Christ...to have faith in His finished work.

That's what I believe also.

Faith that the Lord gives an individual to enable the carrying out of spiritual gifts
Paul wrote to the Romans that they had gifts differing from one another. Gifst like prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhorting, giving, etc. (Rom. 12:6-8). And he told them to carry out those gifts according to the proportion of faith. It looks to me that this was a faith that was given them to aid them in the specific gifts they were given.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom. 12:3
​

So a person who was gifted with giving (12:8), e.g., would also be given a measure of faith to be able to give with simplicity. I guess (because it's not presented clearly, or I'm just not seeing it clearly) that this means that regardless of his circumstances, he would have faith to know that his giving would be effective, that he would be provided for, or whatever.

I go along with this to. It would be pointless for God to give someone a gift if they didn't have the faith to operate in it. This kind of faith would certainly be gifted.

Supernatural faith
The things listed in I Corinthians 12 aren't called ministry gifts (although that doesn't mean they aren't, necessarily). They're called manifestations of the Spirit. And they would cease with the coming of "that which is perfect". I know we disagree on what that is, so I'm only telling you the way I see it. Those gifts pertained to God's program for Israel, being rooted in the kingdom program. With its passing, they would still be useful as God was still dealing with Israel throughout the Acts period. But then when God would be completely done with Israel, the gifts would no longer have a place.

I think these following passages paint a pretty good picture of what was the manifestation of the Spirit as a gift of faith:

And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:5-6
​

A mustard seed is a tiny seed that just becomes something else. It doesn't worry and fret. It just grows into something else. Faith of a mustard seed is a faith that doesn't concern itself with how. It just does.

And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matt. 17:14-20
​

Jesus wasn't making a point about moving mountains. He was making the point that to cure the man's son, they needed a faith that would simply DO and not try to figure out HOW. A faith like that could move mountains, He said.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt. 21:21-22
​

Causing the fig tree to wither should be anything astonishing for the one who had faith of a mustard seed. They didn't yet have that faith. But it would be given to them supernaturally later. This what it would boil down to:

Here's where I disagree. Jesus wasn't talking about a future gifted faith here, but what was possible if they believed (Mark 11:22 "have faith in God"). What Jesus is implying is that it is not the size of a person's faith, but the purity of a person's faith.

Matthew 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt

This shows that it is possible to have faith, but also doubt. An example of this would be, do we believe we could abseil down a huge cliff? Do we believe it enough to do it?

Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"

It's possible to believe and yet be hindered by doubt.
We also see a really good example of mustard seed faith demonstrated by the Roman centurion who said, "just say the word and my servant will be healed", and he went on to explain the reasoning that brought him to this conclusion. SO, a simple faith that has no doubt at all, is a pure faith, it doesn't have to be a big faith. This would be true in any dispensation.

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matt. 6:25-34
​

The supernatural gift of faith would give the apostles and disciples the ability to remain focused on the task at hand during the time of Jacob's Trouble, without worrying about how they would be sustained during that time. Just as God supernaturally provided food for Israel and supernaturally kept their shoes from wearing out in the wildnerness, so too, during Jacob's Trouble, would He supernaturally provide for them. He even told them to pray "give us this day our daily bread" with the promise to provide it to them...just as He did centuries prior that.

Like this and the other supernatural gifts like tongues and healing, they still remained during the Acts period, with Gentiles being gifted with them. The things that were for Israel were given to Gentiles, demonstrating to Israel that God had judged the nation and turned to the Gentiles.

Many words, but only 2 cents...

You see, I would say that this is a faith that comes from the inner peace of God when we trust his word.​

 

[andyc]

Yes indeed! And of course Saul of Tarsus believed in God intellectually but he appeared to have a heart of stone. So our Lord had to blind him to get him to open the "eyes of his heart", so to speak.

Paul's conversion is another excellent example.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are justified by Christ's faith.

Randy,

The Greek word translated "justified" means "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

A person receives the imputed righteousness of God as a result of his own faith, and not the faith of the Lord Jesus:

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:20-24).

It is because of one's faith that one is accounted righteous, not because of the faith of Christ:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:5-6).

"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6).

When the Scriptures speak of the "faith of Christ" the meaning is the "faithfulness of Christ."

The Greek word translated "faith" also means "fidelity, faithfulness; the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Nick M]

There is only one faith. It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

I think in our language, faith has more than one meaning.

The faith of Christ like Randy said is what saves us. His faith was allegence to a duty or mission. He was going to do it no matter what.

And there is the synonym of believing. We believe and trust, we have faith. Well, godrulz and andyc don't.

 

[chickenman]

Does this mean that you see at least four types of faith in scripture?

Three types of an individual's faith. Jesus' faith was His own individual faith. It's what justifies us after we believe in His finished work on the cross.

Are you saying that the Corinthians were not justified by faith?

I wasn't saying anything like that. They, like us today, were baptized into Christ when they believed the gospel of Christ. At that point, they became justified by His faith, made holy and blameless, and righteous...perfect in Him.

So yes, they were justified by faith. Saved by grace through faith alone.

 

[chickenman]

Randy,

The Greek word translated "justified" means "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

A person receives the imputed righteousness of God as a result of his own faith, and not the faith of the Lord Jesus:

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:20-24).

It is because of one's faith that one is accounted righteous, not because of the faith of Christ:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:5-6).

"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6).

When the Scriptures speak of the "faith of Christ" the meaning is the "faithfulness of Christ."

The Greek word translated "faith" also means "fidelity, faithfulness; the character of one who can be relied on" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In His grace,
Jerry

Thanks, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks, Jerry.

You are welcome, Randy. What type of faith would you classify the following faith:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).

From what is written in verse 24 would you agree that this type of faith could not be considered a "saving" faith?

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Squeaky]

Many people misunderstand faith. Many think that believing is their faith. And faith is different. There are many that believe but still rely on their own abilities to run their own lives. Faith is spiritual strength to let go of self and let God take over. Everyone was given a portion from birth. Now everything else shows us how to grow our faith.

Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
(NKJ)

 

[Nang]

Andy,

Check this article out. It is the finest teaching regarding faith I can offer you:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faithof.html

Nang

 

[chickenman]

You are welcome, Randy. What type of faith would you classify the following faith:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).

From what is written in verse 24 would you agree that this type of faith could not be considered a "saving" faith?

In His grace,
Jerry

I would definitely agree with that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Andy,

Check this article out. It is the finest teaching regarding faith I can offer you:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faithof.html

Nang, these articles are confusing you and leading you to a false conclusion regarding the relationship of "faith" and "salvation." Earlier you said:

IOW's, we do not "believe" to get saved. We "believe" because we have been saved. . . strictly by the grace and will of God.

You are wrong when you say that "we do not 'believe' to get saved." Please consider the following exchange and pay particular attention to the answer which was given to the Philippian jailer:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

In His grace,
Jerry