Do the Angels in Heaven Have a FREE WILL?

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SonOfCaleb

Active member
annabenedetti said:
I'm sorry, but that simply makes no sense. Heaven should be a place of perfection, where rebellion isn't possible. How could the angels have possibly rebelled? I don't know why I didn't think of this before now. And then you throw a few million or billion people into Heaven and then expect they'll behave like angels (pun intended) when even the angels rebelled, and supposedly rebelled before Adam and Eve supposedly walked in the garden. So the angels rebelled before there was ever such a concept as original sin. The entire rebellion narrative makes no sense. And all these people for all these millennia walking around thinking they were born already marked with original sin and they were doomed from the start unless they were saved.
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The rebellion in heaven by the Angels happened just prior to the flood when many of these rebellious angels materialised as humans on Earth producing the Nephilim. The roots of this rebellion were in Eden when Satan decieved Eve and both Adam and his wife believed Satans lie and ate from the Tree of Knowledge against Gods express command. Thus Satan led humankind into rebellion and was also able to lead a "third of the stars of heaven" (essentially a large number of Angels also, who then became Demons and followers of Satan) into rebellion as well.

Satan coveted and craved was duly only Gods right. He was then able to lead some of the angels and the entirety of Mankind into outright rebellion.
 
dodge

dodge

New member
SonOfCaleb said:
Satan wasn't an Archangel. The prefix Arch means principal or chief angel. Therefore there is only one Archangel which is Jesus or Michael as he was known by during his prehuman existence.
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Jesus was not an angel. He was God in flesh.
 
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SonOfCaleb

Active member
annabenedetti said:
I see a problem with the idea that a being can be booted out of Heaven.

In Heaven there should be no imperfection, no pride, no rebelliousness, no envy. What's to prevent another rebellion of angels or saints?
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There wont be another rebellion in heaven. The Bible tells us thats Gods new Kingdom "Will stand to times indefinite". Satans example will stand as indefinite proof an example that ALL rebellions against God and challenges to his soveringty are sinful and unjust. If any angel was to pursue such an injurious course after Gods Kingdom is finally established and completed on Earth (his Kingdom is already established in Heaven) his son Jesus will deal swiftly with it.
 
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SonOfCaleb

Active member
dodge said:
Jesus was not an angel. He was God in flesh.
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John 8:53-57:-

Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
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Jesus own words in John -acknowledging his prehuman existence as an Angel, as well as the existence of his father Jehovah God- which clearly don't agree with what you believe.
 
dodge

dodge

New member
SonOfCaleb said:
John 8:53-57:-



Jesus own words in John -acknowledging his prehuman existence as an Angel, as well as the existence of his father Jehovah God- which clearly don't agree with what you believe.
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Read ALL of JOHN !

Jhn 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Scripture says all things was made by God.

Scripture says all things were made by Jesus.

Scripture says all things was made by the Holy Spirit.
 
Crucible

Crucible

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Satan was born in grace, just as Adam and Eve. They never went through trials, and grew anxious to experience something else.

Also, this is what I explained before, which also happens to be the official Catholic teaching on the matter- the Catholic Church is largely the one who speaks on angelology.

*BUMP*

Crucible said:
Yeah.. let's sabotage the complexity of will after having seen the 'beatific vision', just to exalt one's obsession of 'free will'.

The angels in Heaven have an entirely different kind of will- if one's will is the same in Heaven, then it stands to reason that eventually, history will repeat itself. There will be another casting down after the Apocalypse, and Hell will never actually be closed.

Angels have a 'perfect will', in which once they have made a decision, they cannot go back on it. They cannot change their mind or repent, because they have already seen the height of creation and the ultimatum thereof. In other words, the enmity that was found in Satan already existed, dormant, from the start.
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SonOfCaleb

Active member
dodge said:

Read ALL of JOHN !

Jhn 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Scripture says all things was made by God.

Scripture says all things were made by Jesus.

Scripture says all things was made by the Holy Spirit.
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Ok lets assume you're correct. How do you explain the Bibles contradiction with your belief in Jesus being God. And how do you explain what Jesus said which clearly dispute your belief:-

It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God

Yet you have not known him, but I know him

But I do know him and am observing his word.
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Its very clear from these verses Jesus is talking about two individuals one of which [himsef] is subordinate to the other.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
SonOfCaleb said:
Ok lets assume you're correct. How do you explain the Bibles contradiction with your belief in Jesus being God. And how do you explain what Jesus said which clearly dispute your belief:-



Its very clear from these verses Jesus is talking about two individuals one of which [himsef] is subordinate to the other.
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Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" John 10:30.
 
dodge

dodge

New member
SonOfCaleb said:
Ok lets assume you're correct. How do you explain the Bibles contradiction with your belief in Jesus being God. And how do you explain what Jesus said which clearly dispute your belief:-



Its very clear from these verses Jesus is talking about two individuals one of which [himsef] is subordinate to the other.
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You might want to study Isa 9:6


Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa. said the child born ( Jesus ) WOULD BE CALLED

1.Wonderful
2.Counsellor
3.The Mighty God
4.The everlasting Father
5.The Prince of peace


The scriptures do not contradict them self You have to study-pray-trust God, and seek His counsel and wisdom.


Jhn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
S

SonOfCaleb

Active member
dodge said:
You might want to study Isa 9:6


Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa. said the child born ( Jesus ) WOULD BE CALLED

1.Wonderful
2.Counsellor
3.The Mighty God
4.The everlasting Father
5.The Prince of peace


The scriptures do not contradict them self You have to study-pray-trust God, and seek His counsel and wisdom.


Jhn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
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I didnt think you'd have an answer...And those scriptures don't support your belief that Jesus is God anyway.
 
Tambora

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Do the Angels in Heaven Have a FREE WILL?


If they can make choices, they have freewill.
 
dodge

dodge

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SonOfCaleb said:
I didnt think you'd have an answer...And those scriptures don't support your belief that Jesus is God anyway.
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Sure they do !

Ever read John 8:58 ?

Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM ".


How about when Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God !

Scripture is clear Jesus is God.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
It is imperative to believe that Jesus is God for your salvation.

Jesus said, "For if you believe not that I AM HE (God) you will die in your sins" John 8:24.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Of course they do. Every living thing that God creates has a free will. I live in a wooded are in the country and see dozens of birds and animals everyday. They are all doing their own thing.

Angels are mentioned 290 times in the Bible. They were present during the birth of Christ and will be present when Christ returns.

THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN.
"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan) and the dragon fought with his angels and did not prevail; neither was there any place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon (Satan) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceives the world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" Revelation 12:7-9.

Satan much like Adam had a free will. You have to have a free will to rebel and sin against God, unless you want to believe that God creates humans and angels that are like robots and God causes them to rebel and sin against him. If that is what you believe please don't read any further because you are beyond hope.

Jesus apparently witnessed the fall of Satan and his angels. "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from the heavens" Luke 10:18. Which proves that Jesus was in heaven with God. Satan apparently wound up in the Garden of Eden and contributed to the fall of Adam and Eve.

If the angels in heaven have a free will then we also have a free will because we are greater than angels and will judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:3.
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Exactly. Satan was created perfect "until iniquity was found in him". It then goes to explain how satan/Lucifer dwelt on evil thinking, and this grew into eventual evil action. Every mass shooting begins with someone fixating/dwelling upon,/fantasising about doing the evil deed. That's why we need to continually spring clean and renew our thoughts.
 
dodge

dodge

New member
ttruscott said:
How very JW of you....
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Nope, not even close I am not JW.

Eze 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
 
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