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We drew straws.
ECT Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter turbosixx
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We drew straws.
achduke
Active member
Should we not all be of circumcision?
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
achduke
Active member
Yes, He certainly was not saved by the Law!
Acts 15:5-11 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Right Divider
Body part
There is absolutely NO water in Romans 6:3-4 or Galatians 3:27. You're one of the many that cannot read the word "baptism" without thinking that water is involved.
Mark 10:38-39 KJV 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Six times, not a drop of water.
PENTECOST was a LAWFULLY required feast day for ISRAEL. You have a totally confused idea about ISRAEL.
Do you follow the law of Moses, per command of Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:1-3?
OUR (us in the body of Christ) baptism is INTO HIS DEATH and there is NO water involved.
John the baptizer's water baptism was NOT something new. Israel had water cleansing ceremonies as part of their law.
Dialogos
Well-known member
You totally misunderstand that verse.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, (1Co 1:17 NKJ)
First, it is clear from the scriptures that a number of the Corinthians Paul is now writing to were baptized under Paul's ministry even though he himself may not have done the dunking.
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.
6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
7 And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue.
8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
(Act 18:4-8 ESV)
5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.
6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
7 And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue.
8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
(Act 18:4-8 ESV)
This is one of the clearest examples of disharmony between MAD and the scriptures. MAD has Paul preaching the gospel and planting churches all the while overseeing the baptism of many in error.
:shocked:
But the scriptures never once indicate that Paul was doing anything other than what the Lord called him to do.
So Paul says in 1 Cor that he is glad that he didn't baptize anyone but Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanus, and Acts 18 says that many who heard Paul were baptized?
How are we to reconcile these facts?
Easy, just because people were baptized under Paul's preaching of the gospel doesn't mean that Paul personally baptized them.
Just like many were baptized under the preaching of Jesus' gospel but Jesus didn't personally baptize them either.
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), (Joh 4:1-2 ESV)
2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), (Joh 4:1-2 ESV)
No need to come at the text with a dispensational hack saw and create all manner of different dispensations. Just the common sense realization that many were baptized when Paul preached but Paul didn't personally dunk them all and he is glad because then they can't brag about being baptized by Paul.
Simple really.
Those that stumble over baptism are the seriously lost.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Patrick,
your chart doesn't answer my post.
Were many of the Corinthians baptized under Paul's preaching as Acts 18 said, yes or no?
If yes, then why?
If water baptism isn't for the Body of Christ then why did Paul allow many to be baptized?
Why not ? How many Christians get baptized today ? Why ? Your questions are answered by scripture. It was custom to be baptized as it is today.
turbosixx
New member
Exactly, no one can earn it.
Right Divider
Body part
And yet LATER in Paul's ministry he writes that there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ.
Eph 4:1-6 KJV 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
This ONE baptism is NOT water.2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Paul's ministry was unique and was not the same as the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel. This is why Paul tells Timothy that he is "for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
Dialogos
Well-known member
It doesn't answer my questions because it doesn't address why Paul baptized anyone.
I'm sure many, I wish more did.Patrick Jane said:
Because it is commanded by the Lord.Patrick Jane said:
I know they are, its just that those answers don't support MAD.Patrick Jane said:
Dialogos
Well-known member
Right, all those who are baptized share an experience of baptism as a unifying part of their common faith.
Paul was not trying to say that the circumcision had two baptisms, one spiritual and one physical but those in the body of Christ only have one spiritual baptism.
Paul was clearly, and by clearly I mean from the context clearly, saying that Christians are to walk in humility and unity with one another.
" I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(Eph 4:1-6 NKJ)
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(Eph 4:1-6 NKJ)
Its as the plain as the nose on anyone's face.
Paul wants the Christians in Ephesus to walk in unity so he appeals first to what they have in common. Namely, a common body, a common Spirit, a common hope, a common calling, a common Lord, a common faith and a common baptism.
Then Paul will build on that unity and talk about the diversity of spiritual gifting.
The whole notion that Paul was attempting to distinguish between gentile believers and circumcised believers is not only foreign to the context; its exactly the opposite of what Paul is emphasizing here!
turbosixx
New member
Water cleansing wasn't new but submersion in water was new. The water cleansing in the OT were baths. The only submersion I know of in the OT was Namaan.
Jesus said it takes water and the Spirit.
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
To say this is birth is ridiculous. Everyone meets that requirement.
If water is not part of the conversion process, why would Jesus say " 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Do you want to be a disciple of Christ?
If water is not a part of baptism, why would Paul use an ot story and say they were baptized and point out they were surrounded by water. It points out the water twice.
1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Last time I looked clouds and sea are made of water. Why would he point out they were covered by water if water isn't significant?
When Paul finds out these people didn't receive the Holy Spirit and didn't even know about it, why did he ask about their baptism if Jesus does the baptizing at belief???
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." What possible reason would he ask this question if Jesus does the baptizing at belief?
If you can answer these questions maybe I can better understand your point of view.
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turbosixx
New member
I agree. This is a tactic of Satan. Jesus said make disciples "baptizing them in the name of". That's how we are added to Christ by being baptized in his name.
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Why would Paul ask "into what" were you baptized when he finds out they didn't even know about the Spirit if Jesus is the one that does the baptizing at belief??? Wouldn't he just say you received the Spirit when you believed and here are some gifts?
Why does Paul question the baptism that Jesus does at belief when he finds out they didn't even know about the Spirit? Why does he not question the gospel they heard or if they believed it?
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Man says baptism doesn't save but God's word does.
1 Pt. 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
There it is black and white "baptism now saves you". You can study this passage and in your mind make it say "baptism does not save you" that's your free will.
1 Jn. 5:7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Right Divider
Body part
You have such a dumb caricature of MAD in your head that you have NO idea what is really says or means.
Indeed there is ONE COMMON BAPTISM and there is NO WATER involved. THIS is the ONE BAPTISM that Paul is talking about:
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
During Jesus' earthly ministry HE most definitely made a distinction between Israel (and those gentiles that joined with and respected Israel) and ALL other gentiles.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
This distinction is clear UNTIL PAUL (based on the revelation that he received from the risen Lord Jesus Christ).
Even when Peter goes to Cornelius, he does NOT preach "by grace through faith"... he preaches:
Acts 10:34-35 KJV
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
That is NOT the gospel of the grace of God that Paul received and taught.34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
The reason that Peter could say this is also shown here:
Acts 10:1-2 KJV
1 There was a certain man in Cæsarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
This was NOT some heathen gentile like the ones that Paul was sent to; this was a man who loved God and respected Israel (the people).1 There was a certain man in Cæsarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
turbosixx
New member
Yep
turbosixx
New member
Your only seeing what you want to see, isn't this the gospel? What grace is founded on?
Acts 10:39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Right Divider
Body part
Nowhere does it say that John's baptism was a submersion. That is just a classic assumption.
Water is heavier than air, so even when it says "came up out of the water" there is NO indication of submersion as water is ALWAYS in a valley and you're always going to "come up out of" it regardless of how much of you gets wet.
Indeed, that was the point. You must be born physically and THEN spiritually.
Because He was ministering to ISRAEL.
Romans 15:8-12 KJV
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Do you want to be HIS BODY?
Where does it say "COVERED BY WATER"? See.... this is your confused BIAS showing. They all when through the sea on DRY LAND.
Exodus 14:21-22 KJV
21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
God does NOT change peoples calling. Therefore, those that where called during the ministry of Jesus and the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes remain in that calling.
Paul's later calling pertaining to the NEW CREATURE, the body of Christ, does NOT change other peoples calling.
1 Cor 7:18-20 KJV
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
Right Divider
Body part
On OUR works of righteousness.... absolutely not.
Read Acts 10 again without your "it's all the same" bias.
turbosixx
New member
Again, your seeing what you want to see. If Paul's point was no water involved then why did he not say "DRY LAND" as you are???? We will never agree as long as you only see what you want to see in each passage. I agree I can do the same but in this passage he points out the water involved, twice and says nothing about being dry.
baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Why would Paul baptize people if it isn't the truth of the gospel. I know you say "progressive" but that isn't good enough to wipe away all the baptisms he performs. Why would he perform a single one is my question. People are only baptized after they believe. If they believe the gospel and there is no water involved in the truth of the gospel there is no good reason to baptize them at this point. In fact the opposite is true, to prove the truth of the gospel Paul would not baptize. He only circumcised Tim in order to open the mind of the Jews so they would listen to the gospel.