ECT D'ism was invented because Chafer thought the Bible was confused

[andyc]

Hi and just look up the Greek word FIRST / PROTOS and the word to be used first , is FIRST , CHIEF or BEGINNING in John 2:10 and in 2 Peter 2:20 !!

dan p

Yes, but "first" as you understand it is in relation to time, whereas the translators understand it in relation to rank.
Paul was the worst of sinners, not the first sinner to be saved.

 

[Danoh]

...

In 1 Tim 1:15 it reads , Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I am FIRST / PROTOS !!...

What translation is that?
You're saying that the translators got it wrong?

Those trying to enter heaven in the short bus are supposedly correcting the translators.

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

The balance of verse 13 there, begins with the word "and."

But that "and" is not in the sense of "in addition to" but of "in other words" - the sense is I "was before a blasphemer (in other words) "a persecutor, and (or, in fact) injurious:

That first word there, the word "and" is in the sense of "But..."

As with much of what he is saying there, in those, as in other passages in Scripture - a thing means what it says - but what does it mean?

A thing means what it says, but merely believing it means what it says, is often insufficient - one must first attempt to extract from it, what it actually means by what it says.

Moving on, we read a reiteration of what he has just said, but with different words.

1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

DanP is right - The Apostle Paul is speaking of his having been the prototype of the salvation that he has just reminded Timothy of.

prototype (n.)

c. 1600, from French prototype (16c.) and directly from Medieval Latin prototypus "original, primitive," from Greek prototypon "a first or primitive form," noun use of neuter singular of prototypos "original, primitive," from protos "first" (see proto-) + typos "impression, mold, pattern" (see type (n.)). In English from 1590s as prototypon.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prototype

This is also backed up by the doctrine that Paul is actually basing his assertions there, on.

For a doctrine of Paul's (given him by the Lord) is not only what all that is based on, but understanding an assertion of Paul's intended meanings thru a doctrine of his, is actually the stronger method of the two (of attempting to discern what a writer in Scripture is actually referring to - either through attempting first to understand the particular doctrine said writer is basing an assertion on, or through attempting to get at the sense of a word through a translation of the original).

A word will often leave one at the mercy of one's own pick and choose.

In contrast, a doctrine consists of far much more than a word or two.

And such is the case with the doctrine The Apostle Paul is actually basing what he is saying there in 1 Timothy, on.

The doctrine of Israel's having so filled up the measure of it's sins, and that God; having foreknown Israel would do just that; had planned to forego His Prophesied wrath for a time; and instead merely turn from them in His wrath, at the same time He'd begin to usher in an hitherto unrevealed or Mystery Age, of Grace towards all.

And Saul of Tarsus would be His prototype, or pattern of this Unprophesied Age of His - of His Longsuffering towards all, that He might save some, before He finally speaks, in His Wrath.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And God's having planned to delay His wrath there, was not the first time He had planned to do so...

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

In other words, His delay of His Wrath as to Israel prior to His blessing that nation at last, is not the first time He has delayed said wrath.

The thing that differs though, is that this time He has done so in accordance with an hitherto never revealed plan of His for a temporary Mystery Age of Grace.

And the Apostle Paul was the first one saved under that.

For a pattern of this salvation begun with the saving of said pattern.

Before that he "was...a blasphemer" with his nation, there at the end of Acts 7 and into Acts 8.

Before this Mystery Age, and but for this Mystery Age that God had planned on ushering beginning with Paul; he had been unsaveable under the prior economy...

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Said prior economy had extended into Early Acts...

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Thus, although there had been this...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

That prayer of there's there; that is the prayer of a Tribulation saint - that is where the world was then headed, with Israel's fall now...

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread. 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

But God had planned to temporarily hold back this Prophesied course of Wrath the world had then been on, with Israel's fall...

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

It is within all that, that Paul is writing of what he is writing about in 1 Timothy 1.

But you know what, Andyc?

Despite your need to oppose what you clearly haven't a clue about...

Nevertheless, Romans 5:8, towards you.

 

[DAN P]

Yes, but "first" as you understand it is in relation to time, whereas the translators understand it in relation to rank.
Paul was the worst of sinners, not the first sinner to be saved.

Hi and try using CHIEF in John 2:10 , would read , " EVERY man at the CHIEF doth set forth , does not make sense and the same thing in 2 Peter 2:20 would read < " and the latter end is worse with them than at the CHIEF , NO it is BEGINNING and nor CHIEF , and translations are not INSPIRED !!

It is PROTOS / FIRST in 1 Tim 1:15 and in verse 16 , also !!

dan p

 

[andyc]

Hi and try using CHIEF in John 2:10 , would read , " EVERY man at the CHIEF doth set forth , does not make sense and the same thing in 2 Peter 2:20 would read < " and the latter end is worse with them than at the CHIEF , NO it is BEGINNING and nor CHIEF , and translations are not INSPIRED !!

It is PROTOS / FIRST in 1 Tim 1:15 and in verse 16 , also !!

dan p

First in what?
Rank or time?

 

[andyc]

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

The balance of verse 13 there, begins with the word "and."

But that "and" is not in the sense of "in addition to" but of "in other words" - the sense is I "was before a blasphemer (in other words) "a persecutor, and (or, in fact) injurious:

That first word there, the word "and" is in the sense of "But..."

As with much of what he is saying there, in those, as in other passages in Scripture - a thing means what it says - but what does it mean?

A thing means what it says, but merely believing it means what it says, is often insufficient - one must first attempt to extract from it, what it actually means by what it says.

Moving on, we read a reiteration of what he has just said, but with different words.

1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

DanP is right - The Apostle Paul is speaking of his having been the prototype of the salvation that he has just reminded Timothy of.



This is also backed up by the doctrine that Paul is actually basing his assertions there, on.

For a doctrine of Paul's (given him by the Lord) is not only what all that is based on, but understanding an assertion of Paul's intended meanings thru a doctrine of his, is actually the stronger method of the two (of attempting to discern what a writer in Scripture is actually referring to - either through attempting first to understand the particular doctrine said writer is basing an assertion on, or through attempting to get at the sense of a word through a translation of the original).

A word will often leave one at the mercy of one's own pick and choose.

In contrast, a doctrine consists of far much more than a word or two.

And such is the case with the doctrine The Apostle Paul is actually basing what he is saying there in 1 Timothy, on.

The doctrine of Israel's having so filled up the measure of it's sins, and that God; having foreknown Israel would do just that; had planned to forego His Prophesied wrath for a time; and instead merely turn from them in His wrath, at the same time He'd begin to usher in an hitherto unrevealed or Mystery Age, of Grace towards all.

And Saul of Tarsus would be His prototype, or pattern of this Unprophesied Age of His - of His Longsuffering towards all, that He might save some, before He finally speaks, in His Wrath.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And God's having planned to delay His wrath there, was not the first time He had planned to do so...

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

In other words, His delay of His Wrath as to Israel prior to His blessing that nation at last, is not the first time He has delayed said wrath.

The thing that differs though, is that this time He has done so in accordance with an hitherto never revealed plan of His for a temporary Mystery Age of Grace.

And the Apostle Paul was the first one saved under that.

For a pattern of this salvation begun with the saving of said pattern.

Before that he "was...a blasphemer" with his nation, there at the end of Acts 7 and into Acts 8.

Before this Mystery Age, and but for this Mystery Age that God had planned on ushering beginning with Paul; he had been unsaveable under the prior economy...

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Said prior economy had extended into Early Acts...

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Thus, although there had been this...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

That prayer of there's there; that is the prayer of a Tribulation saint - that is where the world was then headed, with Israel's fall now...

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread. 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

But God had planned to temporarily hold back this Prophesied course of Wrath the world had then been on, with Israel's fall...

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

It is within all that, that Paul is writing of what he is writing about in 1 Timothy 1.

But you know what, Andyc?

Despite your need to oppose what you clearly haven't a clue about...

Nevertheless, Romans 5:8, towards you.

If all the bible translators agree with me, I'm hardly going to be bothered you do not :chuckle:

 

[DAN P]

First in what?
Rank or time?

Hi and you need to read and understand post 183 , so read again see how word is used in 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 and in John 2:10 and in 2 Peter 2:20 to clear the AIR ??

dan p

 

[andyc]

Hi and you need to read and understand post 183 , so read again see how word is used in 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 and in John 2:10 and in 2 Peter 2:20 to clear the AIR ??

dan p

prwtov protos pro’-tos

AV-first 84, chief 9, first day 2, former 2, misc 7; 104


1) first in time or place
1a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
2a) influence, honour
2b) chief
2c) principal
3) first, at the first


Context dictates which. So lets look at the context in Timothy.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul is talking about how he regarded himself before his conversion. And so the context is dealing with how much he has been forgiven.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

No matter how vile a person is, Christ came to save such.


of whom I am chief.

Meaning "the worst of the worst", as the bible translators state.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Therefore Christ longsuffering shows just how far the grace of God can reach the sinner. If Paul can be saved being the vilest, anyone can be saved in like fashion. That is the pattern.

 

[Danoh]

If all the bible translators agree with me, I'm hardly going to be bothered you do not :chuckle:

I never did say the translation is wrong.

For I do not hold that it is.

Rather that DanP's sense of it's meaning is sound; yours...is not.

Again, though, despite your willful incompetence, nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards you.

 

[andyc]

I never did say the translation is wrong.

For I do not hold that it is.

Rather that DanP's sense of it's meaning is sound; yours...is not.

Again, though, despite your willful incompetence, nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards you.

Don't be silly. His interpretation cannot be sound if it disagrees with every translator.
Paul is clearly talking about himself as being first in rank as a sinner. The chief of sinners. I'm only agreeing with the translators, so your problem is with them, not me,

 

[DAN P]

prwtov protos pro’-tos

AV-first 84, chief 9, first day 2, former 2, misc 7; 104


1) first in time or place
1a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
2a) influence, honour
2b) chief
2c) principal
3) first, at the first


Context dictates which. So lets look at the context in Timothy.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul is talking about how he regarded himself before his conversion. And so the context is dealing with how much he has been forgiven.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

No matter how vile a person is, Christ came to save such.


of whom I am chief.

Meaning "the worst of the worst", as the bible translators state.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Therefore Christ longsuffering shows just how far the grace of God can reach the sinner. If Paul can be saved being the vilest, anyone can be saved in like fashion. That is the pattern.

Hi and that last paragraph is what is used to explain to the many person in addiction , that IF Paul was the CHIEF of SINNERS , than there is hope for you which is THE BIG LIE !

Gal says tha Paul was separated from his mother's womb before Paul was born and Paul was also separated to only preach God's gospel and the Greek word SEPARATED / APHOTIZO means the Paul was LIMITED only to preach Grace , Rom 1:1 !!

dan p

 

[andyc]

Hi and that last paragraph is what is used to explain to the many person in addiction , that IF Paul was the CHIEF of SINNERS , than there is hope for you which is THE BIG LIE !

Then you deny what Paul is saying, which madsters do 24/7 anyway.

Gal says tha Paul was separated from his mother's womb before Paul was born and Paul was also separated to only preach God's gospel and the Greek word SEPARATED / APHOTIZO means the Paul was LIMITED only to preach Grace , Rom 1:1 !!

Everyone's salvation is predestined according to foreknowledge, and he has prepared work for us to do (Eph 2:10)

 

[DAN P]

Then you deny what Paul is saying, which madsters do 24/7 anyway.



Everyone's salvation is predestined according to foreknowledge, and he has prepared work for us to do (Eph 2:10)

Hi and in Acts 26:20 it says " doing WORKS , BEFITTING THE CHANGE OF MIND !!

The Greek word in Acts 26:20 , first verb is to SHEW which is in the Greek IMPERECT TENSE and the Imperfect Tense means the in the beginning in Acts 26 they began to shew the proof of there works and than WORKS was no longer required and then stopped as Grace began to be PREDOMINATE !!

Read Matt 3:11 and tell that WORKS are NOT REQUIRED under the Law of Moses ?

You have no where to go !!

dan p

 

[andyc]

Hi and in Acts 26:20 it says " doing WORKS , BEFITTING THE CHANGE OF MIND !!

The Greek word in Acts 26:20 , first verb is to SHEW which is in the Greek IMPERECT TENSE and the Imperfect Tense means the in the beginning in Acts 26 they began to shew the proof of there works and than WORKS was no longer required and then stopped as Grace began to be PREDOMINATE !!

Read Matt 3:11 and tell that WORKS are NOT REQUIRED under the Law of Moses ?

You have no where to go !!

dan p

If light has shined in a person's heart, it is going to change the way they think and act, yes?

 

[Interplanner]

The Eph 2:10 is collective plural (all believers) and they are chosen in Christ. I don't think it is a good idea to dwell on individual election very long outside of 'in Christ.'

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Eph 2:10 is collective plural (all believers) and they are chosen in Christ. I don't think it is a good idea to dwell on individual election very long outside of 'in Christ.'

Nevertheless, Paul was first to receive ALL LONGSUFFERING, and was a pattern.
It should not be ignored.

 

[DAN P]

If light has shined in a person's heart, it is going to change the way they think and act, yes?

Hi and salvation BEGINS with Christ opening one's heart as Christ did to Lydia in Acts 16:14 !!

Then as Eph 2:8 , God gives the FAITH to believe !!

Then Rom 10:9 is next with confessing with the MOUTH , then believe in the resurrection , you will be saved !!

The last verb in Rom 10:9 YOU WILL BE SAVED is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIOVE MOOD is because God is saving by GRACE ONLY in the DISPENSATION and it began with Paul 2000 years ago !!


This is the PATTERN of 1 Tim 1:16 !!

dan p

 

[Sherman]

2P2P is entirely made up. A resurrection not completing promise to Israel is made up. A NT that thinks there is a land of Israel or 2nd round of Judaism that is part of eschatology is made up. Mt24 about details in Judea in the future is made up.

This obessive posting about 2P2P is trolling. You have trolled the forum long enough with it. I am going to lock every thread that has this. Any new posts with this are going to get you an infraction. TOL'ers are fed up with this trolling.

There are better ways to debate without trolling people with this. You are taking over the forum with these posts. No more.