Discerning the difference.

[Arial]

Good points all. After the body of Christ is raptured, I believe the difference is that the Lord Jesus Christ will rule on this earth with a physical people (the nation of Israel - Jews). During that time (1000 years) it will once again be a physical people so doing what Christ says will be required, and won't it be easy with Him sitting on the Throne? I think that's a step forward in the physical kingdom. Then there will be turning the other cheek, etc.

If that is what God is going to do, then that is what will happen. And then I will see it clearly and will be joyful. Same with you if it unfolds some other way. That is the main thing. The restoration of all things. No sin. No sinners. No sorrow. No decay. No loss. No pain or anger or confusion. That too is something we can not imagine as to what the reality will be like, to live with God in His kingdom. But just think of this---having gone through all that we go through here on earth----how great will be our rejoicing and our gratitude. And maybe that is one reason it happened the way it did from the beginning. So we can truly see the glory of God and truly be eternally, deeply grateful. I can't say of course what God's purpose was when He put that serpent in the garden, but I can see that result in the people He redeems. We will see His glory and we love Him with a true and pure love and will worship all the more for having gone through this long and hard journey on our way to our true Home.

 

[glorydaz]

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

"Of the same body" as whom?

What is "His promise"?

Paul is letting the Gentiles in Eph. know they are able to enter into the body of Christ through his gospel.

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The promise of the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[Idolater]

Paul is letting the Gentiles in Eph. know they are able to enter into the body of Christ through his gospel.

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Great, so "of the same body" as whom?

The promise of the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

To whom is that promise made? To the house of Israel, right?

 

[glorydaz]

If that is what God is going to do, then that is what will happen. And then I will see it clearly and will be joyful. Same with you if it unfolds some other way. That is the main thing. The restoration of all things. No sin. No sinners. No sorrow. No decay. No loss. No pain or anger or confusion. That too is something we can not imagine as to what the reality will be like, to live with God in His kingdom. But just think of this---having gone through all that we go through here on earth----how great will be our rejoicing and our gratitude. And maybe that is one reason it happened the way it did from the beginning. So we can truly see the glory of God and truly be eternally, deeply grateful. I can't say of course what God's purpose was when He put that serpent in the garden, but I can see that result in the people He redeems. We will see His glory and we love Him with a true and pure love and will worship all the more for having gone through this long and hard journey on our way to our true Home.

I don't believe the church will be on earth during the millennium kingdom, for we are a spiritual people. By it's been a long time since I've studied that. There is just so much I can take in.

 

[glorydaz]

Great, so "of the same body" as whom?

To whom is that promise made? To the house of Israel, right?

There is only one "body of Christ" which believers are baptized into when we believe in Jesus's work on the Cross.

Most of the promises, that I know of, are for the nation of Israel. The land promises being paramount.

 

[glorydaz]

Great, so "of the same body" as whom?

As those who first were saved under Paul's Gospel. He went to the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Paul was letting those people know that when they believed in the dbr of Christ, they would enter into Christ. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Idolater]

There is only one "body of Christ" which believers are baptized into when we believe in Jesus's work on the Cross.

Baptized "with the Holy Ghost" right? Luke 3:16

Most of the promises, that I know of, are for the nation of Israel.

Right. House of Israel, Nation of Israel, Israel and Judah.

The land promises being paramount.

Ah, for Dispensationalists they are.

 

[glorydaz]

Baptized "with the Holy Ghost" right? Luke 3:16

Well, we know the indwelling Holy Spirit could not come down until Jesus had resurrected, so what Luke was speaking of there, I'm not sure.

Was it what the early church experienced, or was it what Paul preached where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ?

Right. House of Israel, Nation of Israel, Israel and Judah.

Ah, for Dispensationalists they are.

Yes, and in the end days, it will come to fruition. I don't plan on being here to see it.

 

[Idolater]

Well, we know the indwelling Holy Spirit could not come down until Jesus had resurrected, so what Luke was speaking of there, I'm not sure.

Was it what the early church experienced, or was it what Paul preached where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ?

It seems like it must be the latter.

Yes, and in the end days, it will come to fruition. I don't plan on being here to see it.

lol OK.

 

[Arial]

I don't believe the church will be on earth during the millennium kingdom, for we are a spiritual people. By it's been a long time since I've studied that. There is just so much I can take in.

Same here as to studying it. I left it alone, the book of Revelation and trying to figure out what each thing means for years. Am just starting to look into it again, from a different perspective---mainly the historicist view of interpretation. I am reading a book called "The Returning King" by Vern S Polythress. It outlines the main views of interpretation: preterist, futurist, historicist, idealist. I agree with him when I read this that there are elements of truth in all of them. But to me the historicist view, as well as amillennialism, is making the book as a unit make more sense to me and I see better the purpose and the glory of Jesus better.

But as you say, it is a huge undertaking, and at my age 75, there is already so much crammed into that brain, that is slow going. More often than not on the back burner. I know the ultimate end of the war and Who wins.

 

[Tambora]

Am just starting to look into it again, from a different perspective---mainly the historicist view of interpretation.

I applaud you!
I'm doing the same.
But my historical vantage point is from the 1st century and before and try to study it without the clutter of modernized interpretations (such as locust being military black helicopters).
I'm looking for what the early Jews would have in their mind when reading the imagery of John's descriptions.
The imagery, the terminology, and idioms would have been something they were familiar of.
It has been said that Revelation uses more imagery from OT scripture than any other book, but doesn't directly quote any OT scriptures (as in saying 'as it was written' or 'as the prophet's told', etc.).
And John seems to use imagery that combines many OT scriptures together (instead of the imagery coming from a single section or a single prophet of OT).

 

[Arial]

I applaud you!
I'm doing the same.
But my historical vantage point is from the 1st century and before and try to study it without the clutter of modernized interpretations (such as locust being military black helicopters).
I'm looking for what the early Jews would have in their mind when reading the imagery of John's descriptions.
The imagery, the terminology, and idioms would have been something they were familiar of.
It has been said that Revelation uses more imagery from OT scripture than any other book, but doesn't directly quote any OT scriptures (as in saying 'as it was written' or 'as the prophet's told', etc.).
And John seems to use imagery that combines many OT scriptures together (instead of the imagery coming from a single section or a single prophet of OT).

Those are the types of things that this book I am reading brings to light. It eventually gets to a line by line through the book---and I am not there yet. But it really needs to be read and understood as you say, from John's use of OT scripture. It is the same type of writing, apocalyptic prophecy as is found in OT prophecy. And would have been understood by the Jews. So when we figure out what they understood it to mean---we'll have it. In any case by using the same imagery etc Revelation is showing us things that were prophesied in the OT being fulfilled. And I believe it is not all future prophecy, but in some cases as in the three? series of judgements, they are the same judgement from three different perspectives, and not all of it is future prophecy but shining a light on what is going on in the heavenlies since the resurrection as this battle arrives at its conclusion. Just some thoughts.

 

[Arial]

@Tambora

Last night I was thinking of something I said in post #92 that is incorrect. And that is when I said in that last sentence about it being the spiritual battle going on since the resurrection. Some of the things that happened in the OT, as we see in Samuel, the Kings, and other places and some of the prophecies that happened in the OT, are part of what we get the "behind the scenes" in the spiritual realm perspective of, in Revelation also. The what was, what is, and what is to be. I have a feeling that if I ever get through this very detailed process, what will be seen is a beautiful, majestic "picture book" of the inside story. In the rest of the Bible, particularly the OT we are told what God is doing, as in the earthly battles and judgments, and we are shown who He is. But there is a sense of it taking place at our level. In Revelation He lets us see in great glory, what is taking place in all this in the spiritual realm.

I would be very interested to hear and learn what you discover as you progress in your study.

 

[Tambora]

@Tambora

Last night I was thinking of something I said in post #92 that is incorrect. And that is when I said in that last sentence about it being the spiritual battle going on since the resurrection. Some of the things that happened in the OT, as we see in Samuel, the Kings, and other places and some of the prophecies that happened in the OT, are part of what we get the "behind the scenes" in the spiritual realm perspective of, in Revelation also. The what was, what is, and what is to be. I have a feeling that if I ever get through this very detailed process, what will be seen is a beautiful, majestic "picture book" of the inside story. In the rest of the Bible, particularly the OT we are told what God is doing, as in the earthly battles and judgments, and we are shown who He is. But there is a sense of it taking place at our level. In Revelation He lets us see in great glory, what is taking place in all this in the spiritual realm.

I would be very interested to hear and learn what you discover as you progress in your study.

Makes perfect sense to compare Revelation to the OT scriptures since Paul tells us that no matter what anyone tells you, you should check the scriptures to see if what they say is truth.

And yes, I would love to see a study thread on comparing the imagery of Revelation to imagery in the OT, even if it was just bits and pieces that could keep being added to when we run across them.

And something else you said in another post would be a good study thread also.

in some cases as in the three? series of judgements, they are the same judgement from three different perspectives,

This would be worth the study, and there have been many scholars that express the possibility of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls all being perspectives of the same event (ie. saying the same thing three different ways).
It seems the main reason they arrive at that conclusion is that the endings of all three sets seem to be expressing the climatic end of the world.

 

[Arial]

Makes perfect sense to compare Revelation to the OT scriptures since Paul tells us that no matter what anyone tells you, you should check the scriptures to see if what they say is truth.

And yes, I would love to see a study thread on comparing the imagery of Revelation to imagery in the OT, even if it was just bits and pieces that could keep being added to when we run across them.

And something else you said in another post would be a good study thread also.


This would be worth the study, and there have been many scholars that express the possibility of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls all being perspectives of the same event (ie. saying the same thing three different ways).
It seems the main reason they arrive at that conclusion is that the endings of all three sets seem to be expressing the climatic end of the world.

Maybe I will start a thread so this one doesn't derail, or you can. But briefly as I have gone through the different schools of interpretation though there is error and truth and elements of crossover in all of them, and can even be combined, Historicist seems to be the weakest, IMO. To get into the why of it would be more than should be here probably, because it would need to include a look into all schools of interpretation etc. etc.

 

[glorydaz]

The difference between Paul's ministry and that of the twelve should be obvious to anyone, but tradition blinds the eyes of people that don't let the scripture speak.

The term "Son of man" occurs 85 times in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The term "Son of man" occurs ZERO times in Paul's thirteen epistles.

There is a simple and obvious reason for that. Paul was teaching something different.

I just can't let this go.

I believe that it's because "Son of man" refers to Christ's earthly position (relating to the nation of Israel).
Paul tells us that we are no longer to know Christ in that way. 2 Corinthians 5:16

What is really interesting is that Paul didn't know Him in that way, either.

Instead he was in close communion with the ascended Lord, and the revelations given to Paul were enough to totally over-shadow our Lord's time on earth pre-cross. Emphasis now became the death, burial, and resurrection and what Christ accomplished for us. We can add nothing to the work of the cross. Not repenting, confessing sin, water baptism, obedience to the commandments, but watch the people try to grab some glory for salvation onto themselves. It's so sad. Paul is being slandered every day right here on this forum. His words are being twisted. He is being ignored by churches all across the world.