Did Paul Teach Two Opposing Doctrines?

[Robert Pate]

Justification by faith and the doctrine of predestination are opposing doctrines. You will have to believe one and reject the other. Justification by faith means that you have been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ and it is your faith that makes the Gospel yours. Therefore you are (justified) made right with God by faith. No predestination needed.

The doctrine of predestination means that before the foundation of the world God declared that you were saved. Nothing else really matters. If God declares it, it is a done deal. Justification by faith is not relevant to one that claims that they have been predestinated. All that matters in predestination is that you have been elected by God to be saved. That is the Calvinist Gospel.

Now, the question is did Paul teach these two opposing doctrines? Did Paul teach that we are justified (made right with God by the doing and the dying of Jesus) which is by faith, or are we saved because God declared it to be so? (predestination).

Some Calvinist will say that God made them to believe the Gospel. That is just another way of saying that God declared them to be saved. Regardless of how you slice it, God predestinated them to be saved and predestination is their Gospel.

Paul said that, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel. The Bible teaches that we hear the Gospel, we believe the Gospel and we are saved. This is how it happened on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Calvinist on the other hand believe that faith is imparted to them by God without hearing anything. They apparently wake up one morning and they have faith. Again we have two opposing doctrine as to how one receives faith.

 

[heir]

Justification by faith and the doctrine of predestination are opposing doctrines. You will have to believe one and reject the other.

No, what you need to do is lose the hijacked Calvinist version in their redefinition of predestination which you are so obsessed with and simply believe the KJB. Predestinate is not a cuss word! Do you cross it out of your Bible?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Robert Pate]

No, what you need to do is lose the hijacked Calvinist version in their redefinition of predestination which you are so obsessed with and simply believe the KJB. Predestinate is not a cuss word! Do you cross it out of your Bible?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I own a KJB. The word "predestinate" only appears in the Bible 4 Times. It is a theological mistake to build a doctrine on a word that only appears in the Bible 4 times. The words "faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

As long as the word "predestinate" is used by Calvinist to literally abolish the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ both you and I have a Christian responsibility to oppose them.

 

[Brother Ducky]

It is a theological mistake to build a doctrine on a word that only appears in the Bible 4 times.

Unlike your possibly unique doctrine of the re-imputation of sin; which appears in the Bible how many times?

 

[heir]

I own a KJB. The word "predestinate" only appears in the Bible 4 Times. It is a theological mistake to build a doctrine on a word that only appears in the Bible 4 times. The words "faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

As long as the word "predestinate" is used by Calvinist to literally abolish the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ both you and I have a Christian responsibility to oppose them.

I do not agree with the Calvinistic's redefining of the term predestined or predestinated. It is however, a very GOOD biblical word and what you should do when opening a thread like this is speak the truth about the term and not the hijacked made up meaning no matter how popular. Preach the word 2 Timothy 4:2 KJV!

 

[Bradley D]

I believe that what God "ordained" was the way things were before Adam and Eve fell to temptation and sinned. Wanting to be as gods. I believe that God had predestined all to live what He saw as "good" (beautiful) in creation. But because of the fall of humankind only those who obtain faith/believe will be saved. Few are saved because of the weakness of many who are tempted to be as gods.

 

[patrick jane]

I do not agree with the Calvinistic's redefining of the term predestined or predestinated. It is however, a very GOOD biblical word and what you should do when opening a thread like this is speak the truth about the term and not the hijacked made up meaning no matter how popular. Preach the word 2 Timothy 4:2 KJV!

heir, isn't there a verse or two about Paul conforming to or morphing to his intended audience ? I can't find it.

 

[heir]

heir, isn't there a verse or two about Paul conforming to or morphing to his intended audience ? I can't find it.

Here you go, patrick~!

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There's also:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

and

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Robert Pate]

I do not agree with the Calvinistic's redefining of the term predestined or predestinated. It is however, a very GOOD biblical word and what you should do when opening a thread like this is speak the truth about the term and not the hijacked made up meaning no matter how popular. Preach the word 2 Timothy 4:2 KJV!

The word "predestinate" has been hijacked allright, right along with about a half dozen scriptures that Calvinist believe supports their doctrine.

We need to refute them with the Gospel.

 

[Robert Pate]

I believe that what God "ordained" was the way things were before Adam and Eve fell to temptation and sinned. Wanting to be as gods. I believe that God had predestined all to live what He saw as "good" (beautiful) in creation. But because of the fall of humankind only those who obtain faith/believe will be saved. Few are saved because of the weakness of many who are tempted to be as gods.

Religion is man's attempt to be like God or to be equal with God.

 

[Robert Pate]

Unlike your possibly unique doctrine of the re-imputation of sin; which appears in the Bible how many times?

Once is enough for me. How many times do you need to hear it?

 

[heir]

The word "predestinate" has been hijacked allright, right along with about a half dozen scriptures that Calvinist believe supports their doctrine.

So why not teach the truth of it from the scriptures?

 

[Dialogos]

Justification by faith and the doctrine of predestination are opposing doctrines.

No, no they aren't.

You will have to believe one and reject the other.

No, no you won't.

Justification by faith means that you have been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ and it is your faith that makes the Gospel yours. Therefore you are (justified) made right with God by faith. No predestination needed.

Close, but not quite. Justification by faith means belief and trust in what Christ has done for you, rather than relying on your own merits, is what makes you right before God. I'm not sure what you mean by "its your faith that makes the gospel yours." That's a very fuzzy sentence theologically speaking.

The doctrine of predestination means that before the foundation of the world God declared that you were saved.

You could not be more wrong here.

:nono:

The doctrine of predestination means that before the foundation of the world God marked out some among the mass of sinful humanity those He would enable to believe and therefore would be saved by grace through faith when God effectually calls them.

Canard alert! This is where Robert intentionally misrepresents Calvinism in order to discredit Calvinists.

Calvinists do not believe that elect sinners are born saved, we believe that all believers are elected unto salvation, but this is not the same thing as believing that believers are born saved. A person who has been chosen to receive a million dollars when they turn 50 isn't a millionaire at 35 and an elect sinner isn't saved until they trust in Christ for salvation.


I know of absolutely no reputable Calvinistic sources that argue that the elect are born saved.


The rest of your critique fails because it is based on your faulty premise.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Once is enough for me. How many times do you need to hear it?

You have, on multiple occasions stated that 4 instances is insufficient for the formation of the statement of of a doctrine.

If you make once the criterion for this, do you acknowledge that once would be sufficient in other cases also?

So where is your one verse that speaks to the re-imputation of sin?

 

[Robert Pate]

No, no they aren't.


No, no you won't.


Close, but not quite. Justification by faith means belief and trust in what Christ has done for you, rather than relying on your own merits, is what makes you right before God. I'm not sure what you mean by "its your faith that makes the gospel yours." That's a very fuzzy sentence theologically speaking.


You could not be more wrong here.

:nono:

The doctrine of predestination means that before the foundation of the world God marked out some among the mass of sinful humanity those He would enable to believe and therefore would be saved by grace through faith when God effectually calls them.

Canard alert! This is where Robert intentionally misrepresents Calvinism in order to discredit Calvinists.

Calvinists do not believe that elect sinners are born saved, we believe that all believers are elected unto salvation, but this is not the same thing as believing that believers are born saved. A person who has been chosen to receive a million dollars when they turn 50 isn't a millionaire at 35 and an elect sinner isn't saved until they trust in Christ for salvation.


I know of absolutely no reputable Calvinistic sources that argue that the elect are born saved.


The rest of your critique fails because it is based on your faulty premise.

If your Calvinist God chose some to be saved and some to be damned before the foundation of the world, then your Calvinist God is the most unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous being in the universe.

It is not possible for ANYONE to have saving faith in this tyrant God.

Which means that you are void of faith and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robert Pate]

You have, on multiple occasions stated that 4 instances is insufficient for the formation of the statement of of a doctrine.

If you make once the criterion for this, do you acknowledge that once would be sufficient in other cases also?

So where is your one verse that speaks to the re-imputation of sin?

Why do you suppose Romans 4:8 is in the Bible?

God imputes both righteousness and sin.

Your problem is that you don't believe it.

 

[fishrovmen]

Romans 4:8 is about NOT imputing sins. But even if the word "not" wasnt there; the verse says nothing about sins that were already forgiven and in your very own words "destroyed". FAIL.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Why do you suppose Romans 4:8 is in the Bible?

God imputes both righteousness and sin.

Your problem is that you don't believe it.

What version are you using that states there is the re-imputation of sin? I can't find one.

 

[DAN P]

Justification by faith and the doctrine of predestination are opposing doctrines. You will have to believe one and reject the other. Justification by faith means that you have been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ and it is your faith that makes the Gospel yours. Therefore you are (justified) made right with God by faith. No predestination needed.

The doctrine of predestination means that before the foundation of the world God declared that you were saved. Nothing else really matters. If God declares it, it is a done deal. Justification by faith is not relevant to one that claims that they have been predestinated. All that matters in predestination is that you have been elected by God to be saved. That is the Calvinist Gospel.

Now, the question is did Paul teach these two opposing doctrines? Did Paul teach that we are justified (made right with God by the doing and the dying of Jesus) which is by faith, or are we saved because God declared it to be so? (predestination).

Some Calvinist will say that God made them to believe the Gospel. That is just another way of saying that God declared them to be saved. Regardless of how you slice it, God predestinated them to be saved and predestination is their Gospel.

Paul said that, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel. The Bible teaches that we hear the Gospel, we believe the Gospel and we are saved. This is how it happened on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Calvinist on the other hand believe that faith is imparted to them by God without hearing anything. They apparently wake up one morning and they have faith. Again we have two opposing doctrine as to how one receives faith.

Hi if Paul taught 2 different doctrines , will someone explain Gal 2:14 ??

dan p

 

[Robert Pate]

Romans 4:8 is about NOT imputing sins. But even if the word "not" wasnt there; the verse says nothing about sins that were already forgiven and in your very own words "destroyed". FAIL.

You have 0 understanding of the Gospel.

Because Jesus is Lord he can impute whatever he likes, to whoever he wants.

If you are found to be an unbeliever in the judgment, all of the sins that he atoned for in his crucifixon will be yours.