Did Paul Preach Two Conflicting Doctrines?

[Robert Pate]

The matter is resolved by Jn 6:40. That's the Father's will.

I agree.

Calvinist pay little to no attention to the Bible. Their thinking is... "I know the truth, now don't bother me with a bunch of scriptures that oppose what I believe." They love darkness and will not come to the light, John 3:19-21.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Seems to me that the doctrines are not contradictory, but rather dealing with different things altogether; the how of salvation and the who of salvation. The how is by grace through faith and the who are those predestinated.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Paul taught we are predestined and elected before all worlds began to be conformed to the image of His Son, to the adoption, as sons, because we saved,i.e., those that are saved. Calvinists/Clavinists made up this predestined and elected before all worlds began" to be "elected to salvation."

St. John,

Are you arguing here that adoption as sons and being conformed to the image of his son are not synonyms for salvation?

 

[Robert Pate]

Seems to me that the doctrines are not contradictory, but rather dealing with different things altogether; the how of salvation and the who of salvation. The how is by grace through faith and the who are those predestinated.

There is no scripture in the Bible to confirm that.

 

[Brother Ducky]

There is no scripture in the Bible to confirm that.

True enough. But a meaningless argument. For instance you argue often that God will impute sin back on some of these he is reconciled with. No scripture for that either.

Since you started the thread, you could at least try to deal with the posts directed to you in an honest straight forward manner.

Think I am wrong. Make a case for it.

 

[Robert Pate]

True enough. But a meaningless argument. For instance you argue often that God will impute sin back on some of these he is reconciled with. No scripture for that either.

Since you started the thread, you could at least try to deal with the posts directed to you in an honest straight forward manner.

Think I am wrong. Make a case for it.

The Bible makes a case for the Gospel and justification by faith, I don't have to.

All through the Old Testament God's people are justified by faith. Nothing has changed.

The fact that there is nothing about predestination in the Old Testament should be a concern for you.

 

[Brother Ducky]

The Bible makes a case for the Gospel and justification by faith, I don't have to.

All through the Old Testament God's people are justified by faith. Nothing has changed.

The fact that there is nothing about predestination in the Old Testament should be a concern for you.

Again you miss the point. Justification by grace through faith is a corner stone of Reformed faith.

Argue why you are not confusing the who and the how.

 

[Robert Pate]

Again you miss the point. Justification by grace through faith is a corner stone of Reformed faith.

Argue why you are not confusing the who and the how.

No its not.

Justification by faith means that we are justified by Christ. Faith in and of its self cannot justify.

Only Jesus Christ can justify, Romans 3:26 also Romans 4:5. Faith is what makes the justifying work of Christ ours.

You will have to chose between being predestinated or being justified by Christ. They are conflicting doctrines. If you have been predestinated to salvation, then you don't need to be justified by Christ.

 

[Rondonmonson]

The two conflicting doctrines would be "Justification by Faith" and the Calvinist doctrine of "Predestination" These two doctrines are in conflict with each other. If you have been predestinated to salvation by God before the foundation of the world then you don't need to be justified by faith. If God declared that you are saved before the foundation of the world, then there is nothing else needed to secure your salvation, not faith, not belief, not works, nothing, absolutely nothing. I would go so far to say that not even the Christian life.

Some Calvinist say that God gives those that have been predestinated faith to believe the Gospel. Truth of the matter is, is that we are all born with faith. It is a natural human attribute. As a child we have faith in our parents and then we marry and have faith in our spouse. When we hear and believe the Gospel that same faith is directed towards Jesus Christ. This is what Paul meant when he said... "Therefore being justified by faith (made right with God) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1. We have peace with God because we are Justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus is our justifier, Romans 3:26. The righteousness of God is to our account, Romans 3:22.

No, Paul did not preach two conflicting doctrines. There is no scripture in the Bible that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. If predestination to salvation was a correct doctrine the New Testament would be full of it. The word is only found four times in the New Testament and is totally absent in the Old Testament. The Old Testament saints were justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Things have not changed. We are also justified by faith. They looked forward to the realization of God's promise of a savior. We look back to when he was here and are justified by faith.

No, we are all PREDESTINED to be with God via Jesus Christs blood. We who reject this free gift will not be with God. Its our choice.

 

[Zeke]

The two conflicting doctrines would be "Justification by Faith" and the Calvinist doctrine of "Predestination" These two doctrines are in conflict with each other. If you have been predestinated to salvation by God before the foundation of the world then you don't need to be justified by faith. If God declared that you are saved before the foundation of the world, then there is nothing else needed to secure your salvation, not faith, not belief, not works, nothing, absolutely nothing. I would go so far to say that not even the Christian life.

Some Calvinist say that God gives those that have been predestinated faith to believe the Gospel. Truth of the matter is, is that we are all born with faith. It is a natural human attribute. As a child we have faith in our parents and then we marry and have faith in our spouse. When we hear and believe the Gospel that same faith is directed towards Jesus Christ. This is what Paul meant when he said... "Therefore being justified by faith (made right with God) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1. We have peace with God because we are Justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus is our justifier, Romans 3:26. The righteousness of God is to our account, Romans 3:22.

No, Paul did not preach two conflicting doctrines. There is no scripture in the Bible that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. If predestination to salvation was a correct doctrine the New Testament would be full of it. The word is only found four times in the New Testament and is totally absent in the Old Testament. The Old Testament saints were justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Things have not changed. We are also justified by faith. They looked forward to the realization of God's promise of a savior. We look back to when he was here and are justified by faith.

Why look forward/backward? Christ is supposed to be in you Robert Colossians 1:27, 1Cor 3:16, Acts 17:24, so he isn't returning to a place he already occupies, you literalist just can't overcome the adolescent practice of making spiritual allegory history Galatians 4:24-28. Luke 17:20-21, Christ in you the kingdom and temple of God is the mystery since souls fell into time, Man has slapped labels, and historic ethnic privilege to esoteric teachings that transcend all religious cultures. So all historic based theology are in the same boat still tied to the dock looking into the clouds.

 

[Brother Ducky]

No its not.

Justification by faith means that we are justified by Christ. Faith in and of its self cannot justify.

Only Jesus Christ can justify, Romans 3:26 also Romans 4:5. Faith is what makes the justifying work of Christ ours.

You will have to chose between being predestinated or being justified by Christ. They are conflicting doctrines. If you have been predestinated to salvation, then you don't need to be justified by Christ.

Unless you are going to argue that being predestined in and of itself saves, you fail to see that those who are predestined will be the ones justified. Both doctrines are needed.

 

[Robert Pate]

Unless you are going to argue that being predestined in and of itself saves, you fail to see that those who are predestined will be the ones justified. Both doctrines are needed.

Predestination is a false Gospel. There is only one Gospel, it is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. No one will enter heaven that has not been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Predestination does not justify.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Predestination is a false Gospel. There is only one Gospel, it is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. No one will enter heaven that has not been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Predestination does not justify.

Never said it did. You just won't get to the point without predestination.

 

[Robert Pate]

Why look forward/backward? Christ is supposed to be in you Robert Colossians 1:27, 1Cor 3:16, Acts 17:24, so he isn't returning to a place he already occupies, you literalist just can't overcome the adolescent practice of making spiritual allegory history Galatians 4:24-28. Luke 17:20-21, Christ in you the kingdom and temple of God is the mystery since souls fell into time, Man has slapped labels, and historic ethnic privilege to esoteric teachings that transcend all religious cultures. So all historic based theology are in the same boat still tied to the dock looking into the clouds.

By looking back we look to the Gospel where we were justified, sanctified and redeemed by Jesus Christ. We can never depart from the "Historical Gospel" it was because of the Gospel that we can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. God does not grant his Holy Spirit to anyone that is not "In Christ". In heaven Jesus will still bear the scars that redeemed us. We will always look back to when Jesus justified the ungodly and reconciled the world unto God.

 

[Zeke]

By looking back we look to the Gospel where we were justified, sanctified and redeemed by Jesus Christ. We can never depart from the "Historical Gospel" it was because of the Gospel that we can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. God does not grant his Holy Spirit to anyone that is not "In Christ". In heaven Jesus will still bear the scars that redeemed us. We will always look back to when Jesus justified the ungodly and reconciled the world unto God.

Traditional brain washing, you are the Christ being symbolized through allegorical stories, history is not your friend in those assumptions fed to you by religious programming by this worlds kingdom.

 

[Robert Pate]

Traditional brain washing, you are the Christ being symbolized through allegorical stories, history is not your friend in those assumptions fed to you by religious programming by this worlds kingdom.

Without the doing and the dying of Jesus no one can be saved.

God does not grant salvation to anyone that has not been justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.