ECT DID PAUL BAPTIZE , ARE YOU SURE ??

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Where is the grace and the faith in that verse?

It was the prior message where the grace and the faith is found:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).​

The Jews who believed that were born of God the second when they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5).

Are you another one who thinks that even though those under the law were saved by grace through faith (Ro.4:16) that they had to do works in order to be saved? Have you not learned yet that works and grace are mutually exclusive?
 

turbosixx

New member
In Luke 3:8 CONTEXT is Israel and that Jesus could of those stones on the ground RAISE UP CHILDREN unto Abraham , so what is the CONTEXT , Israel !!

dan p

Yes, Israel.

What does Paul mean by this?
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I don't understand why you say "rather than" preaching the gospel. The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. They were converted by the gospel.

I suggest you are looking at this subjectively instead of objectively. The gospel is salvation to those who "believe". What does it really mean to believe. People have their ideas but God has seen fit to give us examples so we can read and understand what it looks like to believe the gospel.

If we look at the case of the Corinthians, Paul preached the gospel and what does it say about those who believed? In Acts 18:8 where they were converted by Paul we see that Crispus "the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord". Crispus believed and we know that he was personally baptized by Paul.

If we continue with the verse we see And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. They heard the gospel from Paul and those who truly believed were baptized. I suggest to you that is what it means to believe the gospel. It doesn't say, many believe and some decided to get baptized. All the believers were baptized.

If you consider the question Paul asks the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 1, why does he ask it?
Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
What is his point in asking this question?

"Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ", you say? Baptized with water, you say?

Let's look at what Paul says about the ONE BAPTISM that saves.
We are baptized "INTO JESUS CHRIST" (BY ONE SPIRIT)

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH.

Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.​

Your contention is that water baptism is the "operation of God" spoken of here? You notice the work on the heart. It all takes place the moment we believe. The Holy Spirit sees into the hearts of man. Man's lips can be claiming "I repent", and anyone can submit to being dunked, but only the Spirit sees the moment we are "begotten" by the Gospel.

Colossians 2:11-13
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

If you insist on calling water baptism the operation of God, then I give up. :nono:
 

turbosixx

New member
If you insist on calling water baptism the operation of God, then I give up. :nono:

Of course I insist because it's from God's own mouth.
Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

You divide Christ. I follow Jesus, you follow Paul. Where you baptized in the name of Paul?

If you can't see that Paul preached the same gospel as Peter and converted Christians by baptizing them in the name of Jesus just as Peter did, then I give up as well.

Thanks for the discussion.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Of course I insist because it's from God's own mouth.
Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

From His own mouth. John 3:16, 3:18 Where is the baptize there?



I follow Jesus,

No, you follow Jesus before He went to the Cross and rose from the dead.

Tell me, does this verse taken in context apply to you the way you claim baptism does? Do you cast out devils, and remain unhurt when you pick up poisonous snakes and drink poisonous things? Such signs follow you, do they? :think:


Mark 16:16-20 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.​
 

turbosixx

New member
From His own mouth. John 3:16, 3:18 Where is the baptize there?
This is before his DBR.

No, you follow Jesus before He went to the Cross and rose from the dead.
Not correct. Mk. 16:16 is after his DBR.

Tell me, does this verse taken in context apply to you the way you claim baptism does? Do you cast out devils, and remain unhurt when you pick up poisonous snakes and drink poisonous things? Such signs follow you, do they? :think:


Mark 16:16-20 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.​

Notice the last verse there, v.20.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs
These signs were to confirm the word. It's already been confirmed and those signs are no longer needed.


If you understand the truth and I'm confused, then we're both saved. If I understand the truth and you're confused, then I'm saved and your lost. I suggest you should seek to make what Paul did to convert Christians and what he later wrote to them harmonize instead of contradict.
 
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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The words born of "water and of the Spirit" is the same thing as being "born again" and a person is born again when he believes the gospel. Being born again has nothing to do with water baptism.

"And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." (1 John 5:8)

The three agree as one. No water, no agreement.

There has never been a birth without water.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Where is the grace and the faith in that verse?

The grace and truth is in the remission of sins.

God forgives our sin by his grace through our faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

This is done at baptism where our old person dies by God's grace.

No baptism, no grace.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
"And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." (1 John 5:8)

The three agree as one. No water, no agreement.

There has never been a birth without water.

So are you saying that faith is not enough to save a person because in addition to faith a person must submit to the rite of water baptism to be saved?

You do realize, don't you, that when asked what a person must do to be saved he answered, Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:30-31)?

You must think that Paul was wrong about how a person is saved.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
So are you saying that faith is not enough to save a person because in addition to faith a person must submit to the rite of water baptism to be saved?

Correct. We are "saved" by God's grace, not by what we do.

There are three that bear witness to our salvation.

If one witness is missing all are missing.

There is no birth without water.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Peter says that men are born again by the gospel and nothing else. No mention of water. Do you think that he just forgot to mention water?

Jesus' gospel is about being born again.

There is no birth without water, we know that.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Give me the correct translation, if you can.

No one is born until after they are begotten.

And there is no birth without water, not physically, not spiritually.

"Being anagennao again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible..." (1 Peter 1:23)

Strong's Concordance
anagennaó: to beget again
Original Word: ἀναγεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anagennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ag-en-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget again, beget into a new life
Definition: I beget again, beget into a new life.
http://biblehub.com/greek/313.htm
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No one is born until after they are begotten.

And there is no birth without water, not physically, not spiritually.

Here we read that it is by faith that people are born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Here James says the same thing:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"
(Jas.1:18).​

Where is the water?
 
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