Did Christ die for all men?

[meshak]

why would that irritate you to say that we might be saved because Jesus suffered and died for us?
-over and over again
-it is the good news

You don't do that to others, it seems.

why is that?

am I the only one who needs to repeat the same over and over?

You can do that yourself but you don't.

 

[Sonnet]

Sorry, Mat 20:1-16.

1Cor 2:14 and etc. suggests otherwise.

1 Cor 2:14 applies to mature believers - a message of wisdom from God (not the world's). In contrast - for the unbeliever - Paul came with the gospel (vv.1-5).

Again, although I'm a sovereign grace Christian I'm not a Calvinist, just offering a possible reason for why a Calvinist would preach as Piper did in the video. I don't see his preaching as necessarily violating Calvinist logic on the basis noted in previous posts. I'm not sure why a Calvinist has not stepped in to correct either of us, but there it is.

I would agree that God must be Sovereign.

Assuming you take the Arminian position I get your insistence on Piper's theological faux pas, I just don't see the same logical intrusion you do Sonnet.

Ok. I am somewhat of the Arminian persuasion, though it's difficult to pin down some of the definitions. I would rather see a reconciliation of the two positions.

 

[chrysostom]

You don't do that to others, it seems.

why is that?

am I the only one who needs to repeat the same over and over?

You can do that yourself but you don't.

we all need to repeat it over and over
-it is the good news
-that we might be saved
-only because Jesus suffered and died for us
-the last part is important

 

[Lon]

John Piper is a Calvinist but listen to what he tells unbelievers from 4mins 40secs in on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3psJWtT68WE&t=04m40s (The link takes you to 4.40)

"...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."

The antecedent of 'your' is unbelievers.

John Piper believes in particular redemption (also called 'limited atonement' or 'definite atonement') - so did he misspeak? Is his theology tripping him up?

(I posted a very similar OP to this on another Christian forum site (long time ago now) - but I'm still curious about what folks think).

It is a universal or open call, I think, on Piper's part. I think we can get caught up on trying to figure out 'who' will respond to a call, but in this sense, whoever hears Piper is called to "...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."

After the response, we can all argue over who didn't come and why but Luke 15:10 Romans 10:10 Acts 2:21

 

[Sonnet]

It is a universal call, I think, on Piper's part. I think we can get caught up on trying to figure out 'who' will respond to a call, but in this sense, whoever hears Piper is called to "...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."

After the response, we can all argue over who didn't come and why but Luke 15:10

Particular redemption has Christ not dying for some of those that will have watched Piper's video. Why not tell the audience like it is? Just tell them what it is that you (Piper in this case) believes.

I can't see it as anything other than a disingenuous appeal.

 

[meshak]

we all need to repeat it over and over
-it is the good news
-that we might be saved
-only because Jesus suffered and died for us
-the last part is important

You need to add to read the gospel so they don't get half truth gospel like Jesus came down to give us permission or license to sin. Most churches are giving out the halt truth messages.

 

[meshak]

I have been adding the half that most churches are disregarding to spread. That's why I get so much infliction from them. They don't want to spread the whole truth because it is not popular at all.

The churches know that world does not want to hear the whole truth.

they don't want to offend the world.

The whole truth is politically incorrect and unpopular.

In fact, the truth is becoming less and less as time get to closed.

 

[Lon]

Particular redemption has Christ not dying for some of those that will have watched Piper's video. Why not tell the audience like it is? Just tell them what it is that you (Piper in this case) believes.

I can see it as anything other than a disingenuous appeal.

I think you meant "can't"? The problem isn't as stark as it looks. God knows 'who' will respond. For instance, Ford will advertise an open call knowing that they are only going to reach a nitch audience. The commercial is certainly open to all who are interested. Ford dealers have to pay a certain amount to reach an entire audience, but may be charged less by the television company, knowing that the audience is small. We are all okay with this kind of advertising and do not feel slighted even if we don't go buy a Ford.

I think, similarly, though I agree, with a few snags, this is all we are talking about regarding Calvinism. The stakes are higher, thus, so is the scrutiny. I do understand that as well.

 

[Sonnet]

I think you meant "can't"? The problem isn't as stark as it looks. God knows 'who' will respond. For instance, Ford will advertise an open call knowing that they are only going to reach a nitch audience. The commercial is certainly open to all who are interested. Ford dealers have to pay a certain amount to reach an entire audience, but may be charged less by the television company, knowing that the audience is small. We are all okay with this kind of advertising and do not feel slighted even if we don't go buy a Ford.

I think, similarly, though I agree, with a few snags, this is all we are talking about regarding Calvinism. The stakes are higher, thus, so is the scrutiny. I do understand that as well.

Yes, sorry, 'can't' was meant.

I'm not following how your analogy is comparable. Piper, as a Calvinist, believes that all humans are so depraved that they cannot put their faith in Christ unless God chose them - and did so (chose them) for reasons only known to God. This entails Christ only dying for such individuals. To then proceed to tell...whomever (as in this video)...that Christ died for their sins is woefully disingenuous. Integrity demands that you tell them the (Piper's) truth. The gospel according to Piper is something very different to Paul's gospel - 1 Corinthians 15:3b-5.

Let's not forget, Piper views humanity as totally depraved - pretty much all as bad as one another. No one (he thinks) is chosen, by God, because of any foreseen faith. Incontrovertibly - it becomes a lottery.

 

[Lon]

Yes, sorry, 'can't' was meant.

I'm not following how your analogy is comparable. Piper, as a Calvinist, believes that all humans are so depraved that they cannot put their faith in Christ unless God chose them - and did so (chose them) for reasons only known to God. This entails Christ only dying for such individuals. To then proceed to tell...whomever (as in this video)...that Christ died for their sins is woefully disingenuous. Integrity demands that you tell them the (Piper's) truth. The gospel according to Piper is something very different to Paul's gospel - 1 Corinthians 15:3b-5.

Let's not forget, Piper views humanity as totally depraved - pretty much all as bad as one another. No one (he thinks) is chosen, by God, because of any foreseen faith. Incontrovertibly - it becomes a lottery.

I think it best to forgo Piper for the moment, not because Calvinism isn't important, but for me, simply because I think I can answer without it. This is a little guided, not to dumb it down, but that you will be able to forget about me and John Piper for a moment. I nor he can be but planters and waterers. First 4 verses then a question:
2 Peter 3:8-9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16a For God so loved those in the world, that...

Question #1: From what you can tell, does God want anyone to perish?

You can probably second guess me and come up with my next questions after this...

 

[Sonnet]

I think it best to forgo Piper for the moment, not because Calvinism isn't important, but for me, simply because I think I can answer without it. This is a little guided, not to dumb it down, but that you will be able to forget about me and John Piper for a moment. I nor he can be but planters and waterers. First 4 verses then a question:
2 Peter 3:8-9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16a For God so loved those in the world, that...

Question #1: From what you can tell, does God want anyone to perish?

You can probably second guess me and come up with my next questions after this...

Question #1: God does not want anyone to perish.
Question #2: Anyone may have eternal life through belief in him.

Would still appreciate a response to my last post - since it goes to the heart of the gospel message.

 

[Lon]

Question #1: God does not want anyone to perish.

Well, that was pretty much my question. My answer is "no."

Question #2: Anyone may have eternal life through belief in him.

I'd give a 'qualified' yes but 'anyone' is a bit broad and vague. I try to use terms better suited or word-for-word scripture quotes. Again, I don't want you hung up on Calvinism.

Would still appreciate a response to my last post - since it goes to the heart of the gospel message.

Realize you didn't ask even one question so I'm not sure what you mean (unless you are referring to a different post than your last).
I can 'comment' on your statements, but just realize you didn't ask anything. Generally Q&A sets up responses. I think you are asking me to comment on your "incontrovertible lottery." First of all, if it is incontrovertible, by definition I "can't" argue or respond. You've disallowed it, whether I think it is contestable or not, no? Second, I feel I've done this already with the given verse. In a nutshell, I never try to argue a theological position against scripture, just deal with scripture. It is certainly clear that God is unwilling that any should perish. No position other than scripture can undo or contest a scripture passage. Basically, you need only pay attention to the scripture because often enough, the rest of us don't describe as well or convey as well as a given scripture.

I like James Hilston's expiation of God's Decretive and Prescriptive will. Knight also ran a thread on it here too. Do a quick overview of these if you have time, because this is where I am headed from here. -Lon

 

[Sonnet]

Well, that was pretty much my question. My answer is "no."

I'd give a 'qualified' yes but 'anyone' is a bit broad and vague. I try to use terms better suited or word-for-word scripture quotes. Again, I don't want you hung up on Calvinism.


Realize you didn't ask even one question so I'm not sure what you mean (unless you are referring to a different post than your last).
I can 'comment' on your statements, but just realize you didn't ask anything. Generally Q&A sets up responses. I think you are asking me to comment on your "incontrovertible lottery." First of all, if it is incontrovertible, by definition I "can't" argue or respond. You've disallowed it, whether I think it is contestable or not, no? Second, I feel I've done this already with the given verse. In a nutshell, I never try to argue a theological position against scripture, just deal with scripture. It is certainly clear that God is unwilling that any should perish. No position other than scripture can undo or contest a scripture passage. Basically, you need only pay attention to the scripture because often enough, the rest of us don't describe as well or convey as well as a given scripture.

I like James Hilston's expiation of God's Decretive and Prescriptive will. Knight also ran a thread on it here too. Do a quick overview of these if you have time, because this is where I am headed from here. -Lon

There are questions in the OP and most of my posts challenge the Calvinist's position on the Gospel. I don't see that anyone has specifically addressed them.

I'll have a look at your links if I get a chance.

I don't see that you have addressed what I consider to be an incontrovertible lottery. God picking out who will be saved is at odds with the notion that He does not want anyone to perish.

 

[csuguy]

Yea, Calvinism just doesn't mesh with the scriptures. Scripture says that God desires for all to be saved, that Christ died for all - but they must deny this. The scripture says that there is always an escape from sin and that we are fully capable of fulfilling the law - they say you are completely fallen and can do no good of your own volition. Indeed - I've seen them even go so far as to say that sin is the will of God! Utter blasphemy.

1 Timothy 2:4 [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Cor 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [m]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [n]there resulted justification of life to all men.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for all man's sins.

but our sins will not be forgiven if we don't accept Him as Lord and Savior.

salvation is conditional; to have faith in God and Jesus.

You should be reading His word to get the answers, friend.

the key to your question is this verse:

"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life"

False statements, those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies Rom 5:10, they did not have to accept anything, they were rebellious enemies.

 

[Sonnet]

Yea, Calvinism just doesn't mesh with the scriptures. Scripture says that God desires for all to be saved, that Christ died for all - but they must deny this. The scripture says that there is always an escape from sin and that we are fully capable of fulfilling the law - they say you are completely fallen and can do no good of your own volition. Indeed - I've seen them even go so far as to say that sin is the will of God! Utter blasphemy.

1 Timothy 2:4 [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Cor 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [m]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [n]there resulted justification of life to all men.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Capable of fulfilling the law? Surely, only in Christ?

 

[csuguy]

Capable of fulfilling the law? Surely, only in Christ?

Deutoronomy 30:6-20 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your [f]descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will [g]inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again [h]obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the [j]offspring of your [k]body and in the [l]offspring of your cattle and in the [m]produce of your ground, for the Lord will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 [n]if you [o]obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, [p]if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

“Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your [f]descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will [g]inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again [h]obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the [j]offspring of your [k]body and in the [l]offspring of your cattle and in the [m]produce of your ground, for the Lord will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 [n]if you [o]obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, [p]if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [q]out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, [r]that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
​

From the very beginning man has been capable of fulfilling the Law. The Law is, at its core, love. If you love God and your fellow man, truly - not just in word but in deed - then you fulfill the Law. This is a matter of the heart. If one's heart and mind are set on God and doing what is right, such a one is fully capable of pleasing God. However, one who sets their hearts and mind on worldly desires - it is impossible for them to please God.

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

But yes - it is in Christ that we find the fulfillment of the Law, the embodiment of God's Love.

 

[Sonnet]

Deutoronomy 30:6-20 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your [f]descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will [g]inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again [h]obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the [j]offspring of your [k]body and in the [l]offspring of your cattle and in the [m]produce of your ground, for the Lord will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 [n]if you [o]obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, [p]if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

“Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your [f]descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will [g]inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again [h]obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the [j]offspring of your [k]body and in the [l]offspring of your cattle and in the [m]produce of your ground, for the Lord will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 [n]if you [o]obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, [p]if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [q]out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, [r]that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
​

From the very beginning man has been capable of fulfilling the Law. The Law is, at its core, love. If you love God and your fellow man, truly - not just in word but in deed - then you fulfill the Law. This is a matter of the heart. If one's heart and mind are set on God and doing what is right, such a one is fully capable of pleasing God. However, one who sets their hearts and mind on worldly desires - it is impossible for them to please God.

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

But yes - it is in Christ that we find the fulfillment of the Law, the embodiment of God's Love.

Thanks.

Indeed, Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10, as I am sure you know. Paul explicitly states that righteousness is through faith, not through fulfilling the law oneself. He points out the ignorance (lack of knowledge) of his brethren (the Israelites) in their attempts to 'establish their own righteousness'.

 

[Sonnet]

Here's Jesus on the self-righteous: Matthew 23.

'Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel' is a reference to the law of not eating creeping things - so they would strain out such creatures.

 

[csuguy]

Thanks.

Indeed, Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in Romans 10, as I am sure you know. Paul explicitly states that righteousness is through faith, not through fulfilling the law oneself. He points out the ignorance (lack of knowledge) of his brethren (the Israelites) in their attempts to 'establish their own righteousness'.

As Paul states in Romans 10, the problem with the jews was not their zeal for God, but their lack of understanding, lack of knowledge of the righteousness of God. They created their own righteousness. Christ is the end/goal of the law of righteousness. Christ's life served as a model for us to live by - to give our lives fully to God's will, to become servants, to help those in need, and - if need be - to lose our lives. Indeed - one must lose their life to save it.

In Christ we find the knowledge of the righteousness of God, in him we find the fulfillment of the Law (love) - and we are called to follow his example. By doing so we are equipped to fulfill the Law. And this is a requirement on our part - for while we find forgiveness in Christ, eternal life is a reward for good deeds. Our salvation is dependent upon what we do/don't do. Hence Christ teaches that only those who do the will of the Lord will be saved.