Crow Endorses Baby Killing

[Freak]

Okay, so Freak, let's say that you're the OBGYN in charge of a woman in her 16th week pregnancy. She begins to hemmorage for whatever reason, and the baby is either dead, or will soon be either because of the trauma or because a 16 week old baby cannot live outside the womb.
Crow has seen cases like this, and plainly states that there is nothing you can do to save the baby, in any instance. But, if you abort the baby, the mother has a better chance of emerging unscathed.

So, what would you do?

My dear brother in Jesus, Flip Benham with OSA has an article titled:

Why the Life of the Mother is Not a Valid Exception for Abortion

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org...feofmother.html

Read it and get back with me.

 

[erinmarie]

My dear brother in Jesus, Flip Benham with OSA has an article titled:

Why the Life of the Mother is Not a Valid Exception for Abortion

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org...feofmother.html

Read it and get back with me.

That link isn't working.

 

[Freak]

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/lifeofmother.html

 

[Poly]

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/lifeofmother.html

This is a great article and one I fully agree with but how are you going to get people to take you seriously about this crucial issue when they feel they can't quite trust you? You seem to enjoy sowing discord among the brethren or watching it take place. You make people wonder if saving the unborn is really your ultimate concern. I do think you really have concern over this but don't use this issue to seek out personal satisfaction in stiring up conflict as well.

 

[Jeremiah85]

My dear brother in Jesus, Flip Benham with OSA has an article titled:

Why the Life of the Mother is Not a Valid Exception for Abortion

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org...feofmother.html

Read it and get back with me.

That link is irrelevant. I agree that if the child has any chance of living it should not be aborted.
In the example the baby will die or both will die. There is no possibility of the baby living. Do you really believe that we should allow both to die when there is absolutely no chance of the baby living? I certainly hope I am misunderstanding you.

 

[BillyBob]

I do think you really have concern over this but don't use this issue to seek out personal satisfaction in stiring up conflict as well.

The only thing Freak should be seeking is professional help.

:idea: Hey, isn't Zakath a retired shrink?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

The only thing Freak should be seeking is professional help.

:idea: Hey, isn't Zakath a retired shrink?

Maybe Crow could help him, she is in the medical proffession, I do think he needs hospitalization before he hurts himself with his stupidity.

 

[erinmarie]

That link is irrelevant. I agree that if the child has any chance of living it should not be aborted.
In the example the baby will die or both will die. There is no possibility of the baby living. Do you really believe that we should allow both to die when there is absolutely no chance of the baby living? I certainly hope I am misunderstanding you.

This ALWAYS happens to me. I just finished reading the article and found that it was irrelevant too. The instance I was asking Freak about had nothing to do with #1 choosing between the mother's life and the baby's and #2, a mother's choice in the instance I mentioned in the above post is not really applicable. The choice wouldn't be up to the mother, it would be up to the medical staff and her husband/family.

In the instance I mentioned, and in Crow's posts we both state that the baby will not live... So, Freak, now what?

 

[intro2faith]

I think that if both the mother and baby are going to die unless the mother aborts, then that mother and her husband need to pray a LOT about it. If God leads you to not abort, then by golly you better not abort! You better have faith that God knows what He is doing! If He tells you to abort, then so be it. He knows what He's doing.

One other thing:

Would it be better to live a few more years on Earth, and then on Judgement Day have to explain why you authorized the murder of your child, or to die an early death and go to Heaven with your child and NOT have to explain why you authorized the murder of your child.

Then again, God may have plans left for the mother on Earth that He wants her to fulfill. Like I said, it's a decision that would be different for each Christian.

How about this scenario:

The baby will survive if the mother dies. But the mother would survive if the baby dies. What to do? Thoughts?

 

[Freak]

This is a great article and one I fully agree with but how are you going to get people to take you seriously about this crucial issue when they feel they can't quite trust you?.

Same could be said about you.

 

[Freak]

That link is irrelevant. I agree that if the child has any chance of living it should not be aborted.

This is my point. God can & often does miracles even in the midst of great odds. In fact, the child birth process is a beautiful miracle.

 

[Jeremiah85]

This is my point. God can & often does miracles even in the midst of great odds. In fact, the child birth process is a beautiful miracle.

I agree. But you still have not answered the question.

 

[Jeremiah85]

How about this scenario:

The baby will survive if the mother dies. But the mother would survive if the baby dies. What to do? Thoughts?

Baby lives.

 

[Crow]

Baby lives.

Jeremiah,

The situation you are replying to occurs in obstetrics. One cause is pre-eclampsia. Drugs and bedrest are used to delay labor until the baby is old enough to survive outside of the womb, and corticosteroids are also given to the mother--this matures the baby's lungs faster. This way, premature delivery can be performed and the child and mother both have the best chance of survival.

Sometimes, labor commences before the lungs have matured, despite the measures taken. In that case, the baby is delivered and they do all they can to save it, but it usually dies.

Sometimes the mother dies. The baby is delivered immediately and they do all they can to save it. The baby usually dies.

 

[frostmanj]

"I'm not even to the far far right on abortion--I believe that if the fetus cannot survive long enough to be viable because a pregnancy will be fatal to the mother and an abortion might save the mother's life, go for it."

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21566&page=4&pp=15 (post #60)

Crow, tells us that we should "go for it" in killing a baby if we can save a life. Strange logic!

Should TOL have a moderator that believes baby killing is permissable in certain cases?

I think this is a healthy debate!

I personally think Crow should resign or repent.

If this doesn't fit the definition of 'Straw Man' nothing does.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Jeremiah,

The situation you are replying to occurs in obstetrics. One cause is pre-eclampsia. Drugs and bedrest are used to delay labor until the baby is old enough to survive outside of the womb, and corticosteroids are also given to the mother--this matures the baby's lungs faster. This way, premature delivery can be performed and the child and mother both have the best chance of survival.

Sometimes, labor commences before the lungs have matured, despite the measures taken. In that case, the baby is delivered and they do all they can to save it, but it usually dies.

Sometimes the mother dies. The baby is delivered immediately and they do all they can to save it. The baby usually dies.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand that situations are not as cut and dry as I2F presented but I was answering his hypothetical situation as asked. If it ever came to that situation I will always side with the baby. I imagine that such a situation would occur rarely if at all and that most of the time both can be saved.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Freak doesn't care one whit about this issue, all Freak is doing is exploiting the issue to humiliate Crow. Freaks motivations are less than pure. It's all about manipulation. And it's absurd for Crow (a medical professional) to argue this issue with people who know squat about medicine, let alone with a person who knows squat about reality like Freak.

 

[Crow]

Thanks for the clarification. I understand that situations are not as cut and dry as I2F presented but I was answering his hypothetical situation as asked. If it ever came to that situation I will always side with the baby. I imagine that such a situation would occur rarely if at all and that most of the time both can be saved.

You can almost always save the mother. You can usually save both. If the labor can't be stopped and the baby is delivered too early, it's like any other very low gestational weight premature delivery--you do the best you can and sometimes you can save them, sometimes you can't.

 

[Jeremiah85]

You can almost always save the mother. You can usually save both. If the labor can't be stopped and the baby is delivered too early, it's like any other very low gestational weight premature delivery--you do the best you can and sometimes you can save them, sometimes you can't.

Thanks for the info Crow. Next time I promise i'll keep my nose out of medical matters.

 

[intro2faith]

Crow, I realize I don't know too much about the medical profession(obiously), but is there ever a situation where if the mother continues the pregnancy, there is a chance she will die? But the baby would not?