Creation vs. Evolution

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Stripe

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With so much energy being involved is it absolutely impossible for the oceans to have been heated to the boiling point?It's clear that you have no appreciation for the vast amount of energy involved. Either that or numbers suddenly have no relevance to you if population growth isn't being discussed.Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

You have no appreciation for the discussion; your sole objective is to cover mistakes made by Darwinists.

The assertion was that the energy involved would have boiled away the oceans. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how energy works.

It's like saying the sun produces so much heat that the oceans should be gone.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Which has nothing to do with your error. Your error is to assume that the energy released had to go toward boiling the oceans. It didn't. The mountains were raised, remember? They are still there, you realize?
Yeah, the mountains just raised straight up because your deity used a crane. All that movement didn't produce even 1J of heat, right? No friction whatsoever, right? If no heat was produced why is heat such a problen in Baumgardner's model?

Attempting to show Stripe just how much energy 1.0x10^28J is:
1.0x10^28J to move mountains vs 3.8x10^26J/sec from Sun.

It takes the ENTIRE Sun almost half-a-minute (3.8x10^26J/sec) to produce the 1.0x10^28J in Baumgardner's model.

If we assume that it takes 9,900,000J to boil one gallon of water and if we assume that there are 326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water in all the Earth's oceans:

9,900,000J/gallon x 326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water = ~3.23x10^27J to BOIL all the water in Earth's oceans.

1.0x10^28J - 3.23x10^27J

This STILL leaves ~6.8x10^27J to "raise" the mountains. or MORE THAN TWICE the energy necessary to boil all of the water in all the oceans on Earth.

Is my math correct?

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Dear SH,

I don't think that your math is correct by any means. It sounds like the same 'math' used by scientists to tell us how the Earth is millions of years old. Ridiculous. God said He created the Earth and Heaven, and everything on it in a matter of days. How do you figure that a day is really a million years old?? Give us a break!!

Michael
 
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gcthomas

New member
:nono: You found what you could to say what you wanted and ignored what is pertinent.
Atheists are slaves to their own chains -Albert Einstein

That is another misquote where you have changed the wording enough to fundamentally change the meaning. A lie, Lon. You are a liar.


Yes. It does. He said "religion" and you are a lying. To yourself. I nor anybody else is buying your crud.

Your said "In his Creed, for instance, he calls the atheist dead or blind.", but he didn't. I showed you the actual quote which shows the lie of your statement, but you persist in your lie. You are a liar.

I don't know how you can continue to believe in your perfect superiority when your arrogant, self-serving misquotes are so blatant. You should be ashamed, yet you are bombastic. Sad, really.
 

Lon

Well-known member
That is another misquote where you have changed the wording enough to fundamentally change the meaning. A lie, Lon. You are a liar.

I should report you for this. You are the one lying. Give the direct quote and let the world see. You purposefully try to rewrite history in your weird atheist worldview. I've studied him. You, frankly, have not. Oh, I've seen the scads of lying atheist websites. Einstein said he was a pantheist. The reason he said he didn't believe in a personal God was because he said it would upset the majestic balance already set up by God. You are being a flake, frankly. You don't know Einstein and likely with those blinders, never will. The 'lie' comment is a lie and beneath any reasonable man. You really should be reported for slander, trolling, and being unnecessarily disruptive with your inanity.

Your said "In his Creed, for instance, he calls the atheist dead or blind.", but he didn't. I showed you the actual quote which shows the lie of your statement, but you persist in your lie. You are a liar.
:nono: I said the quote and then said 'for instance.' You are hasty and not careful with facts, as is also seen above. disinformation does no service to TOL, me, and discredits yourself. You are not, and never will be an intellectual match for me. You are the one not honest enough for it. You have a huge atheistic chip on your shoulder that clouds and paints your thinking against intelligence and truthful conversation.

I don't know how you can continue to believe in your perfect superiority when your arrogant, self-serving misquotes are so blatant. You should be ashamed, yet you are bombastic. Sad, really.
Yet you just retorted parroting my words to you nearly word-perfect. :plain: I must be memory worthy and quote-worthy no?

I am arrogant but I work hard at trying to make it play the background. I realize I'm not successful. It is really hard to correct somebody who wrongly assesses his/her own prowess above mine without putting that one in proper perspective and that one will always see me as arrogant.

Misquote? :nono: I ever maintain from my actual study of Einstein that 1) He was ever unapologetically a pantheist with slight reservation to redress what it meant with him specifically. 2) He is on record as rejecting atheists trying to label him or own him and made his pantheism clear by always referring to Spinoza's God in full disclosure. 3) You are dredging secondary atheist wishful thinking sources to think otherwise. For some bizarre reason, the atheist mind goes like this: "Einstein (or any other well-known) was against Christianity/Judaism, and therefore they were/are atheists." There are many who make the list, alive today who adamantly reject the futility of that absurd thinking. Einstein spoke highly of the historical Jesus in admiration. He spoke often at seminaries, and while showing where he distances, always placed science as needing religion and vise-versa. Whatever you think you know about Einstein needs to be tossed instead of your inane shallow reactionary. I'm done with you at this point for your posts against TOL rules and any form of sustainable debated being eschewed. You will have to live with your shallow platitudes of what passes for knowledge for yourself. These shallow waters are stagnant and rife with atheist poison.

You need to become a better person than this pathetic shallow pitchman for atheism you've become.
Einstein was against radical atheism and against being embraced as atheist.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear patrick,

I'm caught up now! Told you I would do it. Some people here don't realize that God really is with me just because I made a couple of huge mistakes. But He reassures me that He still loves me and forgives me. I am pardoned, thank God. It's a shame that some don't have any room in their souls for forgiveness. At least I haven't killed the baby inside me. And He forgives those women too. Even though He doesn't like it or approve of it. Whoa!!

Michael
 

DavisBJ

New member
I am concerned with what appears to be some misunderstanding in this thread about the relationship between heat and energy. Stripe has been correct in objecting to some claims in some posts. Whether his objections were founded on him accurately understanding the subject matter – I will leave that up to the judgement of the readers.

Anyway, here goes. 3 million years ago, Alley Oop decided his neighbor, Fred Flintstone, had a cute wife, and so began paying undue attention to her. Fred Flintstone took strong exception to this, and launched a decent-sized rock at Alley Oop’s head. When the rock accurately connected with its target, Alley Oop grabbed his aching head and exclaimed, “That rock really hurt. It must have had a lot of joules of kinetic energy.” (Kinetic energy – the energy an object has due to the motion of the object.) Fred, still a bit miffed, yelled back, “That’s not all. If you pick that rock up, you will find it has a lot of joules of heat energy, since I just pulled out of the fire before I threw it.” (Heat energy – the energy an object has due to the individual motions of the atoms and molecules making up the object.) Fred continued, “Plus that rock has a lot of joules of gravitational potential energy, since I carried it from the valley floor way up here on the mountain just to bounce it off your head.” (Gravitational potential energy – the energy an object has because it has been lifted up through a gravitational field.)

Reviewing these forms of energy, Alley Oop decided Fred’s wife wasn’t all that cute, and he carefully picked up the now-cool rock and carried it to the edge of a high cliff, whence he dropped it over the edge. As the rock descended, it was picking up speed (increasing kinetic energy) because it was now descending through a gravitational field (the decreasing gravitational potential energy was being converted into the increasing kinetic energy of the rock). When the rock impacted the valley floor far below, Alley saw a little spark (some of the kinetic energy was converted to joules of visible electromagnetic radiation), heard the “thud” (some of the kinetic energy converted to joules of energy in sound pressure waves), and though he couldn’t see it, it A) landed on a small piece of carbon, converting a few joules to molecular bonds in a crystal lattice as it compressed the carbon it into a microscopic diamond, and B) the few remaining joules of the kinetic energy just before it hit were converted into heat slightly increasing the temperature of the now stationary rock.

The point of this is that even though we talk about joules in each form of energy, in fact the energy can be in very different distinct forms. Think of energy kinda like water. Water is water is water, and if you have a hundred gallons, then you have a hundred gallons. But no one would claim that 100 gallons of water in the form of steam is identical to 100 gallons of water in the form of ice (try to cool your martini with steam). How do we measure energy – in joules. But the form it takes is equally crucial to the problem at hand. Heat is only one of several forms of energy.
 

gcthomas

New member
I should report you for this. You are the one lying. Give the direct quote and let the world see.

Oh dear, Lon. I have been the one giving direct quotes throughout whilst you have paraphrased inaccurately again and agian. Get a grip.

Einstein was against radical atheism and against being embraced as atheist.

Ahaa! You save the one true comment right to the end. Well done, Lon. You are slowly approaching the truth. Keep going.

(Of course, radical atheism is not a synonym for atheism, so it shows the deceit in your other comments)
 
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Silent Hunter

Well-known member
You have no appreciation for the discussion; your sole objective is to cover mistakes made by Darwinists.
Such as? The only mistakes here are being made by creationists who claim a natural explanation for mountain formation in less than a year but admit a miracle is necessary to dissipate the heat.
The assertion was that the energy involved would have boiled away the oceans. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how energy works.
Have you EVER heard of friction?
It's like saying the sun produces so much heat that the oceans should be gone.
When someone makes that claim I'll be sure to let you know.

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Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Such as? The only mistakes here are being made by creationists who claim a natural explanation for mountain formation in less than a year but admit a miracle is necessary to dissipate the heat.Have you EVER heard of friction?When someone makes that claim I'll be sure to let you know.Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

You show no understanding of what is happening in the conversation.
 

DavisBJ

New member
gcthomas asked Lon:
… Are you sure that you cannot find sources for your claims about Einstein's general view about atheists as opposed to 'fanatical' atheists, a rather more specific criticism….
Lon responded:
…Easily. …
My research on what Einstein said about atheists parallels what gc mentioned – Einstein didn’t express a generic dislike of atheists, but specifically directed his criticism to “fanatical atheists”, and to what he termed as “professional atheists”.

I gather my information from relying on Einstein’s own writings on the subject as recorded in his creed (“My Credo”), his autobiographical books “The World as I See It” and “Out of My Later Years”, an article “Einstein and God” by Bishop Robert Barron, an article “Albert Einstein on Religion and Science” authored by Einstein in about 1930, several fairly extended biographies (by isaacson, Shaw, Clarke).

Lon, in light of my failure to find anywhere in Einstein’s writings where he criticized generic atheism, and few mentions of atheism or atheists in any context, I would appreciate you sharing with us those general views about atheists from Einstein that you say you can find “easily”.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
You show no understanding of what is happening in the conversation.
Oh, I understand what's happening. You can't defend your assertions with facts so you do what you always do, resort to your pat phrases and mockery. How has that been working out for you?

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Silent Hunter

Well-known member
I don't think that your math is correct by any means.
One thing is for sure, Mike. Your rather poor ability at clairvoyance just ain't prove it wrong.
It sounds like the same 'math' used by scientists to tell us how the Earth is millions of years old.
Is "math" different where you come from?
Ridiculous.
Why yes, yes you are.
God said He created the Earth and Heaven, and everything on it in a matter of days.
Yeah, I know, Mike. Your small mind can't comprehend it so the only possible explanation is, christiangoddidit.
How do you figure that a day is really a million years old??
Exactly, ??? (As in what in blazes are you talking about?)
Give us a break!!
I did that already. You used to have extra stars on my "nice list" for christmas but you're rapidly losing them.

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Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Oh, I understand what's happening. You can't defend your assertions with facts so you do what you always do, resort to your pat phrases and mockery. How has that been working out for you?

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:darwinsm:

:mock: Darwinists.
[post= 4754889]As predicted[/post], you can't defend your assertions with facts so you do what you always do, resort to your pat phrases and mockery.

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Jose Fly

New member
Did the energy go toward boiling away the oceans or not?

Again (since you can't seem to wrap your head around this), the 1028 joules is what Baumgardner estimated would be released by moving continents around the planet in a single year, rapidly subducting plates, etc.

IOW, that's not the total energy required to do all that work, it's just the amount that would be released as heat.

If you don't understand, try reading it again.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Again (since you can't seem to wrap your head around this), the 1028 joules is what Baumgardner estimated would be released by moving continents around the planet in a single year, rapidly subducting plates, etc.

IOW, that's not the total energy required to do all that work, it's just the amount that would be released as heat.

If you don't understand, try reading it again.
I attempted to show Stripe just how much energy 1.0x10^28J is:

1.0x10^28J vs 3.8x10^26J/sec from Sun.

It takes the ENTIRE Sun almost half-a-minute (3.8x10^26J/sec) to produce the 1.0x10^28J in Baumgardner's model.

If we assume that it takes 9,900,000J to boil one gallon of water and if we assume that there are 326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water in all the Earth's oceans:

9.9x10^6J/gallon x 3.26x10^20 gallons = ~3.23x10^27J to BOIL all the water in Earth's oceans.

1.0x10^28J - 3.23x10^27J = ~6.8x10^27J

This STILL leaves ~6.8x10^27J which is MORE THAN TWICE the energy necessary just to boil all of the water in all the oceans on Earth.

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Jose Fly

New member
SH,

There's yet another layer here that we haven't even touched. Baumgardner's estimates are based on all this continental movement and cooling taking place over thousands of years, which is way more generous than what other creationists have proposed (e.g., most of the events taking place in about a year).

In the "The Thermal Problem" section of his paper, he identifies three main sources of heat. First he notes that identifying the start of the flood as including all Cambrian and later-aged strata means that the current ocean lithosphere had to have gone from a near molten state to its current temperature in "only a few thousand years". Given what we know about the thermal conductivity of those strata, their size, and the temperature difference between being near-molten and their temperature today, even over a "few thousand years" the rock would have only cooled a "negligible" amount. From that he concludes "some additional mechanism is required for cooling the oceanic lithosphere to its present thickness on a brief timescale."

Next he points out that cooling large magmatic batholiths presents basically the same problem. He specifically notes that the Sierra Nevada range is one such large formation, and based on what we know of its thermal conductivity he concludes "Again thermal conduction alone simply cannot cool a body so vast in the span of a few thousand years." And again he concludes that "Some other mechanism seems to be needed".

Finally he notes how the present day viscosity of the mantle makes moving it large distances in short periods of time impossible. In order to lower the viscosity to make such movement possible, you'd have to have the entire mantle be significantly warmer followed by rapid cooling, again by some unknown mechanism.

From all that he concludes...

"These observations all point to the need to remove large amounts of heat from extensive bodies of rock in the earth in order to account for the geological change proposed for the Flood. It is the author’s conclusion that this cannot happen within the framework of time-invariant physics. Therefore, an important clue as to the nature of the change that occurred seems to be that it involved a decrease in thermal energy throughout the planet."​

IOW, this simply does not work without several miracles. And that's over thousands of years. Imagine what we're dealing with if we're talking within a single year!

There's no polite way to put this....this whole young-earth flood thing is just plain absurd, pretty much on the same scale as flat-earth geocentrism.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Let's see that one - more - time:
SH,

There's yet another layer here that we haven't even touched. Baumgardner's estimates are based on all this continental movement and cooling taking place over thousands of years, which is way more generous than what other creationists have proposed (e.g., most of the events taking place in about a year).

In the "The Thermal Problem" section of his paper, he identifies three main sources of heat. First he notes that identifying the start of the flood as including all Cambrian and later-aged strata means that the current ocean lithosphere had to have gone from a near molten state to its current temperature in "only a few thousand years". Given what we know about the thermal conductivity of those strata, their size, and the temperature difference between being near-molten and their temperature today, even over a "few thousand years" the rock would have only cooled a "negligible" amount. From that he concludes "some additional mechanism is required for cooling the oceanic lithosphere to its present thickness on a brief timescale."

Next he points out that cooling large magmatic batholiths presents basically the same problem. He specifically notes that the Sierra Nevada range is one such large formation, and based on what we know of its thermal conductivity he concludes "Again thermal conduction alone simply cannot cool a body so vast in the span of a few thousand years." And again he concludes that "Some other mechanism seems to be needed".

Finally he notes how the present day viscosity of the mantle makes moving it large distances in short periods of time impossible. In order to lower the viscosity to make such movement possible, you'd have to have the entire mantle be significantly warmer followed by rapid cooling, again by some unknown mechanism.

From all that he concludes...

"These observations all point to the need to remove large amounts of heat from extensive bodies of rock in the earth in order to account for the geological change proposed for the Flood. It is the author’s conclusion that this cannot happen within the framework of time-invariant physics. Therefore, an important clue as to the nature of the change that occurred seems to be that it involved a decrease in thermal energy throughout the planet."​

IOW, this simply does not work without several miracles. And that's over thousands of years. Imagine what we're dealing with if we're talking within a single year!

There's no polite way to put this....this whole young-earth flood thing is just plain absurd, pretty much on the same scale as flat-earth geocentrism.

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Jose Fly

New member
It's this sort of nonsense that led Christian geologist Davis young to state...

"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.

"Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done. . . .
"​

Of course folks like me are more than happy to see people like Stripe, 6days, and Rosenritter advocate these goofy ideas in the name of Christianity. Keep it up, I say! :thumb:
 
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