Hi MC.
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
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Hi MC.
This is the one that got away!! I forgot all about it and went and did some other things. I must have shut down my thread at the wrong time!!
Thanks GM, for always being there!!
Praise God!!
Michael
Thanks GM, for always being there!!
Praise God!!
Michael
Dear All,
We can only imagine what happened to the people who rose from the dead at the time you are describing. I have my ideas on it, but I won't share them with you, because I have no Scriptures to back me up. Do you think they were brought to life just to be buried again??
I'm mum!!
Michael
We can only imagine what happened to the people who rose from the dead at the time you are describing. I have my ideas on it, but I won't share them with you, because I have no Scriptures to back me up. Do you think they were brought to life just to be buried again??
I'm mum!!
Michael
So you believe the saints raised at the resurrection just walked west and appeared to many but didn't go to heaven? That's bull headed foolish thinking. Your scriptures do not explain anything about Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -
There's shoddy and there's shoddy.
Would you agree that a religious book that gives at least five different methods for producing humans is shoddier by orders of magnitude?
1. The magic of a deity breathing into dirt
2. The magic of a deity fashioning a human from a rib
3. Sexual reproduction
4. The magic of appearing from nowhere (or of Cain marrying his sister)
5. The magic of a deity impregnating a woman
So when you call something shoddy, don't forget what your book of talking donkeys says.
Stuart
Cross Reference
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So you are saying that something created from nothing, by no one, is easier to believe than something created out of nothing by, someone? . . . Really?
Cross Reference
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I wonder <:scratchinghead:>. . Do you believe sin is a creation, something that came into being from nothing, by the hand of no one? How 'bout "immorality"?
Only one talking donkey, as opposed to the dozens this site has attracted... (I don't mean you, Stuu)
Rosenritter
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What would be bull headed is to place them in heaven without any positive scripture as support. We have words of Christ and Peter and Paul telling us the saints are NOT in heaven.
Acts 2:34-35 KJV
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Not just that but ascending to heaven is the special identification of the LORD of Hosts. Have you read Psalms 22, 23, and 24?
Again, Revelation 5:8 KJV - proves that some saints are in heaven, some prophets too. Do you think there are only angels ? Ha ! David is not a saint
Cross Reference
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"(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:7-8 (KJV)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:7-8 (KJV)
Dear Cross Ref.,
Ah, bro'!! You got me when I really need to go to bed. Been up all night. I would venture to say that it is hard to say! I would also venture to say that sin is the result of not believing in God or by trespassing against Him. In other words, a creation of His denying His Omnipotence and refusing to do anything except the opposite of what He says to do. Very interesting employment of principles. Now, don't start talking to yourself all of the time! Heeeheheee!!
Much Love, In Christ!! Keep On Posting Here!! You're Interesting!!
Michael
Rosenritter
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Ha ha. Would be funnier if you were on target. David includes himself among the saints, read the Psalms. He is an inspired writer, and a prophet, and called a man after God's own heart (see Acts 13:22)
Psalms 52:1, 9 KJV
(1) To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David...
(9) I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
Acts 13:22 KJV
(22) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Furthermore, Revelation 5:8 says nothing about saints being in heaven. Angels are in heaven, they bring the prayers of the saints in a golden censor. If the saints were in heaven already they wouldn't need angels to metaphorically bring their prayers before the throne, they could actually be before the throne themselves. I haven't heard such foolishness. This claim that you are clinging on to is new to me, and I thought I'd heard them all by now.
Revelation 5:8 KJV
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Please reply with boldface on the words above that say that saints are currently alive are heaven. Granted that this entire passage is a vision using symbolism, but even if we ignore that Revelation 5:8 doesn't even have the symbol that you are claiming is reality. Honesty in discussion?
Rosenritter
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"(For we walk by faith, not by sight
So where does it say that saints are currently in heaven? Let's step through what the Bible lays out for us:
1. We live and eventually die (which shall qualify as absent from the body).
2. We are raised to life when Christ returns (which qualifies as present with the Lord).
So where is the "saints are in heaven right now" in that passage above?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul says that the living shall not prevent (go before) the dead, but then tells us that this is accomplished only because the dead are raised when Christ returns, and then we rise to meet them. That, in truth, contradicts the whole premise of your thread, and all that you and Patrick Jane are saying that the dead are in heaven with the Lord.
At this point I have a question for you and Patrick Jane. Why would you argue against this? This is what is revealed to us in the scripture. It may run counter to your oral tradition and what has been said in your churches, but which are you going to trust? Holy inspired scripture or word-of-mouth? Or do you not trust God to raise you from the dead so you cannot imagine anything but ascending to heaven? Talk to me please.
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Actually, sin is a relationship, Michael. It can only be broken being that is what it is.
So, it's only AFTER the rapture and 2nd Coming that anybody is in heaven? Who are the 24 elders and what are they doing in heaven?
What about the Hosts and servants in heaven? All post rapture?
Sorry this thread is now off the OP topics - I have another thread about Saints in heaven -
Cross Reference
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Rev 7:14; Rev. 6:9 would shut up anyone with an normal brain. Perhaps even an average one. I personally I don't believe we are dealing with either but something sub-human; a corrupted figment of something from another world.
Rosenritter
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That is what is laid out for us in scripture, according to the gospel as preached by Paul, and consistent with what we are told throughout the Hebrew scriptures about the nature of death. It also agrees with what Jesus used as a proof of the resurrection to the Sadducees, where as "existing in heaven after death" would contradict his own proof.
What are the twenty-four elders? I could also ask what the four beasts are that are before His throne. They are part of a vision, but I think it likely that they represent certain angels or types of angels. Why are there only twenty-four elders and only four beasts? The number is probably either chosen or symbolic.
Revelation 5:8-11 KJV
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Notice that the beasts and the elders both sing this song. If the elders must be human saints then by the same logic the beasts must be also. But the elders and the beasts can both be types of angels without requiring any contradiction from previous scripture.
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