Creation, Evolution and Lewis' coin-in-the-drawer analogy

[Interplanner]

I hope that some of you have digested what Lewis asked when he told his scientist pal that all the scientists were looking at was Nature, and to say that that is the only thing out there is artificial and misleading when one tries to form a true view of the world. This is in "Religion and Nature" in GOD IN THE DOCK. At issue is whether the universe is a closed system or is open to being reorder or interacted with by its Creator.

He goes on to the repeating-coin illustration:

"Supposed you put a nickel in your desk's top drawer one day. The next day you do the same thing--another nickel. You plan to do this daily. Do the laws of arithmetic make it certain you'll find a 3rd one the day after?"
"Of course," said the friend, "provided no one's been tampering with your drawer."
"Ah but that's the whole point" said I. "The laws of arithmetic can tell you what you'll find, with absolute certainty, provided that there's no interference. If a thief has been at the drawer, of course you'll get a different result. But the thief won't have broken the laws of arithmetic--only the laws of the land. Now, aren't the laws of Nature much in the same boat? Don't they all tell you what will happen provided there's no interference?"
"How do you mean?"
"Well the laws will tell you how a billiard ball will travel on a smooth surface...but not if someone comes along and bumps it."
"No of course not. A scientist can't allow for monkey-tricks like that."
"Quite. And in the same way, if there was anything outside Nature, and if it interfered, the events which the scientist expected wouldn't follow. That would be what we call a miracle... It's not the expert at mathematics who can tell you how likely someone is to interfere with the coins in your drawer; a detective would be more use. The physicist can't tell you if I'm likely to bump your moving billiard ball; a psychologist would be better..."

If the presupposition of naturalistic uniformitarianism is wrong, we have to ask other people. Is this why scientists are so guardedly against any other kind of information that does not conform to a closed system?

 

[OCTOBER23]

INTERPLANNER,

Nehemiah 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open,

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

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God is a God of Order and knows all the stars by name as the Bible makes PLAIN that Truth.

GOD HAS OPENED TO US THE WHOLE UNIVERSE TO RULE OVER - UNDER GOD.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[Interplanner]

What’s in Your Drawers?

Stay on the topic please. Do you know who Lewis was? Do you know what Dr. Schaeffer meant by a closed natural system vs an open system?

(I responded to your IM).

 

[OCTOBER23]

I think that I am too Spiritually inclined for you. bye

Francis August Schaeffer (30 January 1912 – 15 May 1984[1]) was an American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor. He is most famous for his writings and his establishment of the L'Abri community in Switzerland. Opposed to theological modernism, Schaeffer promoted a more historic Protestant faith and a presuppositional approach to Christian apologetics, which he believed would answer the questions of the age.

C.S. LEWIS,
The argument up to date shows that miracles are possible and that there is nothing antecedently ridiculous in the stories which say that God has sometimes performed them. This does not mean, of course, that we are committed to believing all stories of miracles. Most stories about miraculous events are probably false: if it comes to that, most stories about natural events are false. Lies, exaggerations, misunderstandings and hearsay make up perhaps more than half of all that is said and written in the world. We must therefore find a criterion whereby to judge any particular story of the miraculous. In one sense, of course, our criterion is plain. Those stories are to be accepted for which the historical evidence is sufficiently good. But then, as we saw at the outset, the answer to the question, ‘How much evidence should we require for this story?’ depends on our answer to the question, ‘How far is this story intrinsically probable?’ We must therefore find a criterion of probability.

 

[Interplanner]

I think that I am too Spiritually inclined for you. bye

Francis August Schaeffer (30 January 1912 – 15 May 1984[1]) was an American Evangelical Christian theologian, philosopher, and Presbyterian pastor. He is most famous for his writings and his establishment of the L'Abri community in Switzerland. Opposed to theological modernism, Schaeffer promoted a more historic Protestant faith and a presuppositional approach to Christian apologetics, which he believed would answer the questions of the age.

C.S. LEWIS,
The argument up to date shows that miracles are possible and that there is nothing antecedently ridiculous in the stories which say that God has sometimes performed them. This does not mean, of course, that we are committed to believing all stories of miracles. Most stories about miraculous events are probably false: if it comes to that, most stories about natural events are false. Lies, exaggerations, misunderstandings and hearsay make up perhaps more than half of all that is said and written in the world. We must therefore find a criterion whereby to judge any particular story of the miraculous. In one sense, of course, our criterion is plain. Those stories are to be accepted for which the historical evidence is sufficiently good. But then, as we saw at the outset, the answer to the question, ‘How much evidence should we require for this story?’ depends on our answer to the question, ‘How far is this story intrinsically probable?’ We must therefore find a criterion of probability.

What does 'spiritually inclined' mean? Why don't you just reply about the analogy of the coin? Everyone has to settle the question of whether the system is open or closed, right?

 

[OCTOBER23]

Very well,

The System of the Universe is Ordered but Not Closed or Finished

because Stars are always being Created inside the Black holes at

the Center of the Galaxy by PULLING IN HYDROGEN GAS and

Spinning it and igniting it to form a Star.

The Stars Hydrogen FUZES to Helium, next Silicon, Carbon and finally IRON which cannot Fuze.

The Brown Dwarf Cools and forms a PLANET with a Molten IRON CORE LIKE EARTH.

 

[Interplanner]

New stars would be coins tomorrow or the next day etc. in Lewis' analogy. Lewis is saying that other factors come into play. To be specific, Gen 1 is saying that the earth was just there, watery, developing to a certain extent but not what God wanted. I say that about God's disapproval because 'formless and void' (tohu wa-bohu) carries an indication of God's judgement, Jer 4:23 (the only other OT usage).

Thus there is a case for both evolution and creation, but not finally and not at the same time and not without interruption. As long as they are qualified properly, we are closer to reality if we integrate them both.

When one is done with Gonzalez and Richards doc on THE PRIVILEGED PLANET and its 20 or so precisely tuned features of this universe, all you can do is say there had to be an infinite-personal-intelligent Creator. But that same person may have let some evolution occur on its own here on earth after it emerged from the beginning of time.

 

[Interplanner]

Bumped so it will be found by our friends here.

 

[Interplanner]

Does no one see what the big picture about naturalism is? It is the belief that there is nothing out there but Nature and as a system it is closed to anything that could interrupt it.