Conversion.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am going to have to end the discussion for the time being. I have to get to some chores that need doing. It has been enlightening and I hope edifying for the reader.

AMR

 

[TulipBee]

Bye bye
I'm going to ignore you.

Let's end this topic and put him to bed

 

[Truster]

If you think the example from Holy Writ you use to bolster your view is on topic with your erroneous view, you need to get back to the Book. The Lord of the Sabbath was speaking and teaching therein. You have missed the entire point.

I put no words in your mouth, for out of your own mouth has proceeded what I have accurately discerned. We are all wicked people, daily making idols in our minds, but for the grace of Elohim we would all be consigned to our just punishments.

If Elohim is holy and just, then the Law of Elohim must be part of His nature. That is to say, we ought not to think of the His Law as some abstract set of random principles. Rather, the law is part of who Elohim is. Or, we might say, the Law of Elohim originates in the ‘mind’ of Elohim. Thus, in the Garden of Eden, He gave Adam a law, as a covenant of works, requiring of him personal and perpetual obedience (Genesis 2:16-17). This law which was given to Adam, continues to be written on man’s heart – even since the Fall – and continues to be binding on all human beings who are created in Elohim's image (Romans 2:14-15). Thus, Our Lord summarized the Law of Elohim with the great and foremost commandment to love Him, and the second greatest commandment to love one’s neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40). These moral laws are summarily comprehended in the ten commandments.

No one here is implying some salvific merit is attached to these moral laws. Rather they serve civil righteousness in restraint of sin (Romans 2:14-15), tutor us by driving us to see our need for the Lord (Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 3:23-24), and teach us the rules of holy living (1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 7:12, 22, 25).

AMR

There is no chance that you will bring me back under law with your filthy REFORMED views. Don't you realise I've been there? Are you that blind? Rhetorical?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Moral Law Perpetually Binding

Moral Law Perpetually Binding

There is no chance that you will bring me back under law...

I am confident you have a poor understanding of these things, despite your adopted, all-knowing demeanor.

Ceremonial laws were preparatory or typological. They dealt with how a believer maintains ceremonial cleanliness. This notion pointed beyond itself but there are a number of dietary, clothing, grooming, and physical statutes that an OC Jew had to honor. They were temporary until the fulfillment of the New Covenant when the substance, Christ, came to usher in a Kingdom where the wall of division (in large part made by the ceremonial laws) was torn down. Even the entire Temple or Sanctuary was typological as Moses was shown a copy of the heavenly sanctuary to which we now have access through Christ.

Moral law is naturally, perpetually, and unchangeably binding. Positive law is given for a specific time, place, and circumstance. The ceremonial laws were positive in this sense. Regulations concerning government and worship are of this nature under the New Testament. They are not "ceremonial law" because that has been fulfilled by Christ in the tabernacle made without hands. They are not "moral law" in the sense of being unchanging and perpetually binding because they are given for the New Testament church on earth. Nevertheless they are binding as laws because Christ as head has constituted the government and worship of His church. It might also be noted that the moral law itself teaches the binding authority of things which are positively appointed; the second commandment specifically binds men to observe any and every divine institution.

We ought never to think of the Law of God as being contrary to the grace of the Gospel (Galatians 3:21). Rather, one of the promises of the new covenant is that the Lord will teach His people to walk in His ways, according to His commandments (Ezekiel 36:27; Hebrews 8:10; Jeremiah 31:33).

As Christians, we should remember two things concerning the moral law (or ten commandments). If we remember these two things, we will be able to avoid much confusion in the Christian life. First, no one is able to be justified in God’s sight by the works of the law; through the law comes the knowledge of our own sin (Romans 3:20) and our need for Christ and His righteousness (Romans 8:3-4). Second, if we have come to love Jesus, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15); those who have been born of God keep His commandments (1 John 5:2-3).

Your quibble is not with Reformed thinking, so stop seeing Reformed boogeymen everywhere you look. Rather, your issues are with the clear teachings of Scripture. Go in peace now and leave off discussing matters with me in the future unless you refrain from the usual anti-reformed vitriol.

AMR

 

[Truster]

Without reading anything you posted:

Moral law does not point people to Messiah; it merely illuminates the fallen state of all mankind. Moral law or mishpatim does not sanctify. Moral law does not guide. Moral law does not edify the saints. Moral law is of Moses and the Ten Commandments and the division of the Jewish law into different categories is a human construct and is set to deceive and attempt to bring the redeemed under law and therefore under condemnation.

I once met a woman who told me part of her life story from the day she received a "prophecy" from a Welsh guy down in Portsmouth. Based on what he said she divorced her husband, packed in her job, moved house and was busy looking for the ideal man the prophecy had promised. I swore, something I've only done once, that if I ever witnessed a man prophesying again I would do the five years in prison for the beating I'd give him.

I feel exactly the same way about people like you who are caught in the trap they want others in. Maybe not a five year beating, but a caution slap.

I'd almost forgotten why I hated you people so much. Thanks for the reminder. I would rather rot in a box than read anything you write.

 

[Truster]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the verb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly. JM.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

Just in case anyone is interested in getting this thread back on track. After it has be so rudely derailed by a pack of rabid REFORMED hounds. Philippians 3:2 KJV

 

[Truster]

The nature of conversion.

Before ever coming near to the work of conversion, the word of Elohim had sounded an alarm within the soul of the sinner. This was not bare text or letter. Elohim spoke it, His voice,as the sound of a trumpet, sounded.
By this the sinner was awakened. This was the effect of the sound of the voice of Elohim in the word coming with interior power much as does the blast of a trumpet upon the ears.

As a result of waking up things are seen...