Constitutional Monarchy

[Clete]

If we assume God considered the Jewish request for an earthly king an offense for Israel only, what clear biblical instruction do we have that God wanted other nations ruled by an earthly king?

I refer you again to my previous post....

​

All systems will have flaws, yes, but the system being discussed here wasn't proposed lightly. Israel didn't really demand much of a move. It was not a fundamental change in the form of government, it was merely the installation of a king to preside over the system they already had. The reason Samuel (and God) didn't like it much was because the idea for Israel had been for God to be their king. The whole system hasn't been presented here in this thread and so there's no reason you would know this but the proposed system would effectively be the "judge-archy" (the actual term is "Kritarchy" or "kritocracy", by the way) that you mentioned above except with a king as the chief judge which would make sense since we are not Israel and God has made no offer to act as the head of our nation nor to provide any super-natural protection as He did for Israel.​

It should be noted that God did grant them and even personally select a king and there can be no doubt at all that God had always intended to give Israel a kingdom and so whether God Himself is the king of the nation of Israel or whether He installs a human king, the fact remains that the proposed form of government, as imperfect as it may be, is God's preferred form of government and it is therefore my preferred form of government and should be yours as well. There certainly could be no valid biblical argument made for the superiority of any other form of government.​

The following link will take you to a much more complete presentation of the actual proposed constitution which includes links to both the biblical and political rational behind what is included in it, as well as links to the proposed criminal code and code of use. It is rather surprising the amount of time and effort of thought that has gone into it. I think you'll find it worth your time to read it through.​

The Proposed Constitution of America​

In short, there is no possible biblical argument that can me made in favor of any form of government other than a constitutional monarchy (i.e. a government run by the rule of law with a king as the chief judge, commander of the military and political leader of the nation).

Clete

 

[Right Divider]

I suspect because it took more faith than they could muster to accept God as their King. I'm sure they felt like having an invisible God as the King was like not having a king at all and they wanted a king that they could see with their own eyes like everyone else around them had. That's pretty easy to understand, right?

Yep...

1Sam 8:1-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:1) And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. (8:2) Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: [they were] judges in Beer-sheba. (8:3) And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment. (8:4) Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, (8:5) And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. (8:6) ¶ But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. (8:7) And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (8:8) According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. (8:9) Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

Instead of taking their place as God's unique kingdom, they wanted to be "like all the nations".

 

[marke]

I suspect because it took more faith than they could muster to accept God as their King. I'm sure they felt like having an invisible God as the King was like not having a king at all and they wanted a king that they could see with their own eyes like everyone else around them had. That's pretty easy to understand, right?

I suppose then that we agree that it was not God's will for the Jews to ask Samuel to give them a king?

 

[marke]

I refer you again to my previous post....

​

All systems will have flaws, yes, but the system being discussed here wasn't proposed lightly. Israel didn't really demand much of a move. It was not a fundamental change in the form of government, it was merely the installation of a king to preside over the system they already had. The reason Samuel (and God) didn't like it much was because the idea for Israel had been for God to be their king. The whole system hasn't been presented here in this thread and so there's no reason you would know this but the proposed system would effectively be the "judge-archy" (the actual term is "Kritarchy" or "kritocracy", by the way) that you mentioned above except with a king as the chief judge which would make sense since we are not Israel and God has made no offer to act as the head of our nation nor to provide any super-natural protection as He did for Israel.​

It should be noted that God did grant them and even personally select a king and there can be no doubt at all that God had always intended to give Israel a kingdom and so whether God Himself is the king of the nation of Israel or whether He installs a human king, the fact remains that the proposed form of government, as imperfect as it may be, is God's preferred form of government and it is therefore my preferred form of government and should be yours as well. There certainly could be no valid biblical argument made for the superiority of any other form of government.​

The following link will take you to a much more complete presentation of the actual proposed constitution which includes links to both the biblical and political rational behind what is included in it, as well as links to the proposed criminal code and code of use. It is rather surprising the amount of time and effort of thought that has gone into it. I think you'll find it worth your time to read it through.​

The Proposed Constitution of America​

In short, there is no possible biblical argument that can me made in favor of any form of government other than a constitutional monarchy (i.e. a government run by the rule of law with a king as the chief judge, commander of the military and political leader of the nation).

Clete

I do not disagree with early Christians who saw that absolute power in the hands of a ruthless dictator (a king) was not a good thing. I favor the Constitutional Republic form of government established by early American leaders under the influence of devout Christians and the word of God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If we assume God considered the Jewish request for an earthly king an offense for Israel only, what clear biblical instruction do we have that God wanted other nations ruled by an earthly king?

I think to say A) that God wants other nations ruled by an earthly king, and B) that there is clear instruction for it, would be overstating our position, if not simply false (in the case of B).

That being said, it would not be wrong to say that the idea that any nation, let alone America, should be ruled by a king, can be defended using scripture, and the article I linked above shows just such an argument for that position.

There are also non-Bible-specific reasons for having a king, such as that a single point of authority often rightly motivates, since if that authority makes a bad decision that affects the nation as a whole, he will be the one blamed for it, whereas in our current system, there is no accountability for anyone in our government, at least not to the extent necessary to motivate those in the government to do rightly.

However, there is one passage which excludes at least certain types governments, such as democracies and republics, and that's in Romans:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV

There is a natural downhill flow of authority, from God, to the government, to the people, and from the men, to the wives, to the children, and even the kids can kick the cat off the couch. This passage touches on it briefly.

That flow of authority is what the proposed constitution is based off of.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I do not disagree with early Christians who saw that absolute power in the hands of a ruthless dictator (a king)

There's a difference between a dictator and a king. Please do not conflate the two.

was not a good thing. I favor the Constitutional Republic form of government

If you're going to make the argument that God opposes monarchies, then you also make the argument that God opposes representative forms of governments even more so, as He KILLED the people who such a government, but did not kill those who asked for a king!

Spoiler

Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men;and they rose up before Moses with some of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, representatives of the congregation, men of renown.They gathered together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “ You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”So when Moses heard it, he fell on his face;and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him.Do this: Take censers, Korah and all your company;put fire in them and put incense in them before the Lord tomorrow, and it shall be that the man whom the Lord chooses is the holy one. You take too much upon yourselves, you sons of Levi!”Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi:Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to serve them;and that He has brought you near to Himself, you and all your brethren, the sons of Levi, with you? And are you seeking the priesthood also?Therefore you and all your company are gathered together against the Lord. And what is Aaron that you complain against him?”And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, but they said, “We will not come up!Is it a small thing that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, that you should keep acting like a prince over us?Moreover you have not brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey, nor given us inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you put out the eyes of these men? We will not come up!”Then Moses was very angry, and said to the Lord, “Do not respect their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, nor have I hurt one of them.”And Moses said to Korah, “Tomorrow, you and all your company be present before the Lord —you and they, as well as Aaron.Let each take his censer and put incense in it, and each of you bring his censer before the Lord, two hundred and fifty censers; both you and Aaron, each with his censer.”So every man took his censer, put fire in it, laid incense on it, and stood at the door of the tabernacle of meeting with Moses and Aaron.And Korah gathered all the congregation against them at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,“Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.”Then they fell on their faces, and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and You be angry with all the congregation?”So the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,“Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.’ ”Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him.And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart now from the tents of these wicked men! Touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.”So they got away from around the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, with their wives, their sons, and their little children.And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will.If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me.But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them,and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods.So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also! ”And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense. - Numbers 16:1-35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers16:1-35&version=NKJV

Korah's Rebellion was certainly rebellion against God, as at the time, they were being led by Moses and Aaron, whom God picked to lead them. But the argument could be made, based on your reasoning (and mine, but specifically yours), that God hates republics more than he hates monarchies, since His reaction was to kill the representatives of the people, while letting live those who asked for a king.

established by early American leaders under the influence of devout Christians and the word of God.

You realize that we almost had a king, right?

Prussian scheme - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Clete]

I suppose then that we agree that it was not God's will for the Jews to ask Samuel to give them a king?

Not at the time or in the manner that they did so but as has been pointed out to you many times already, it is clear that God had it in mind for Israel not only to have a kingdom with a king but for the Messiah to eventual sit on that throne.

 

[Clete]

I do not disagree with early Christians who saw that absolute power in the hands of a ruthless dictator (a king) was not a good thing.

Neither do I.

No one here is in support of putting anyone in a position of absolute power. Have you been reading anything we've suggested you read?

No, of course your haven't because you're a lazy waste of everyone's time.

In the biblical system that we are advocating the king would have no authority to make new law. He would simply be the highest judge who's job it is to enforce the law.

I favor the Constitutional Republic form of government established by early American leaders under the influence of devout Christians and the word of God.

A biblical republic a contradiction in terms and is the reason why we are in the mess we're in today. There is no such thing as a biblical republic. God did things in the bible like open up the Earth sending all the people's representatives alive into Hell.

In short, you would fail in any attempt to make a biblical argument for any form of government other than a CONSTITUTIONAL monarchy.

Well, it goes without saying that YOU would fail in any such attempt. You can't even be bothered to read someone else's biblical scholarship, never mind spend the effort to create your own. The point is that any such attempt is doomed from the start whether it was you making that attempt or not.

Clete

 

[marke]

I think to say A) that God wants other nations ruled by an earthly king, and B) that there is clear instruction for it, would be overstating our position, if not simply false (in the case of B).

That being said, it would not be wrong to say that the idea that any nation, let alone America, should be ruled by a king, can be defended using scripture, and the article I linked above shows just such an argument for that position.

There are also non-Bible-specific reasons for having a king, such as that a single point of authority often rightly motivates, since if that authority makes a bad decision that affects the nation as a whole, he will be the one blamed for it, whereas in our current system, there is no accountability for anyone in our government, at least not to the extent necessary to motivate those in the government to do rightly.

However, there is one passage which excludes at least certain types governments, such as democracies and republics, and that's in Romans:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV

There is a natural downhill flow of authority, from God, to the government, to the people, and from the men, to the wives, to the children, and even the kids can kick the cat off the couch. This passage touches on it briefly.

That flow of authority is what the proposed constitution is based off of.

God is in favor of authority but He does not support honoring evil authority above submission to God first and foremost. The king ordered Naboth to surrender his vineyard but Naboth refused to obey the king. Naboth was right and Ahab was wrong.

The authority in America is not a king, not an oligarch, not a tyrant, not a dictator, not a secularist political organization, not a human worshipped as a god, but is the Constitution. In America, the President is subject to the people and to the Constitution. That would not be true of a king.

 

[marke]

Not at the time or in the manner that they did so but as has been pointed out to you many times already, it is clear that God had it in mind for Israel not only to have a kingdom with a king but for the Messiah to eventual sit on that throne.

Are you saying that it was God's will for Israel to have no king but Jesus?

 

[marke]

Neither do I.

No one here is in support of putting anyone in a position of absolute power. Have you been reading anything we've suggested you read?

No, of course your haven't because you're a lazy waste of everyone's time.

In the biblical system that we are advocating the king would have no authority to make new law. He would simply be the highest judge who's job it is to enforce the law.

I am beginning to think you are not listening to a thing I say. If the king does not make the rules then it must be the Congress that is in charge. How is that like a king being in charge?

 

[Clete]

God is in favor of authority but He does not support honoring evil authority above submission to God first and foremost. The king ordered Naboth to surrender his vineyard but Naboth refused to obey the king. Naboth was right and Ahab was wrong.

The authority in America is not a king, not an oligarch, not a tyrant, not a dictator, not a secularist political organization, not a human worshipped as a god, but is the Constitution. In America, the President is subject to the people and to the Constitution. That would not be true of a king.

All true.

What's your point?

 

[Clete]

I am beginning to think you are not listening to a thing I say. If the king does not make the rules then it must be the Congress that is in charge. How is that like a king being in charge?

There is no congress in the system we are advocating. Laws are not to be made, they are to be discovered and then enforced by the governing official. God has laid out a complete legal justice system in the bible complete with the role that a king would play in that system.

There isn't any way possible for you to understand a single thing that we are talking about unless you read the stuff we've asked you to read, Marke!

 

[Clete]

Are you saying that it was God's will for Israel to have no king but Jesus?

No, Jesus was not to be the first King but the last. I'm saying that its plainly obvious to everyone who's done something other than listen to sound bite theology from their pastor's pulpit that God had a king in mind for Israel all the time and that the Messiah would be the last King of the nation of Israel.

 

[marke]

All true.

What's your point?

I don't believe God has clearly indicated that He prefers that America have a king rather than our system of a Constitutional republic.

 

[marke]

There is no congress in the system we are advocating. Laws are not to be made, they are to be discovered and then enforced by the governing official. God has laid out a complete legal justice system in the bible complete with the role that a king would play in that system.

There isn't any way possible for you to understand a single thing that we are talking about unless you read the stuff we've asked you to read, Marke!

You are wrong if you think I don't understand your points just because I don't agree with them. I see no evidence in the Bible that God would rather the US have a king instead of the Constitutional government with the separation of powers we have today.

 

[marke]

No, Jesus was not to be the first King but the last. I'm saying that its plainly obvious to everyone who's done something other than listen to sound bite theology from their pastor's pulpit that God had a king in mind for Israel all the time and that the Messiah would be the last King of the nation of Israel.

Let me first say that I do not believe Christians should get their leading from pastors instead of from God. Let me also say that I do not believe God gives a better understanding of the Bible to religious leaders and teachers than He does to the lowly Christian who has no prominent position in the church. I say that as a Bible scholar myself and former pastor.

I agree God's plan was for Jesus to rule as King over the Jews, just not in Samuel's day.

 

[Clete]

I don't believe God has clearly indicated that He prefers that America have a king rather than our system of a Constitutional republic.

I don't really care anything about what you "believe". What I'm here for is to debate. The case has been made that your belief is wrong. You can choose to ignore it and bore everyone here to death or you can apply yourself to defending your faith and make an argument either in defense of your own belief or in refutation of ours.

Go ahead, marke! Try to make a biblical case in defense of a republican form of government, constitutional or other wise. Show us all were God promotes, defends or otherwise endorses (even by implication) any sort of republican form of government or even a democratic form for that matter. (Note that the terms "republican" and "democratic" are not spelled with capital letters and are not in reference to the modern political parties but refer to republics and democracies.)

Clete

 

[Clete]

You are wrong if you think I don't understand your points just because I don't agree with them. I see no evidence in the Bible that God would rather the US have a king instead of the Constitutional government with the separation of powers we have today.

Answer me directly, marke.

Have you read any of the things we've linked to that explain what it is we are proposing?

Yes or no.

That answer is no. I know that it is because the ignorance you've been displaying here for a week or more. It isn't a statement about your intelligence it's just a statement of fact. You cannot possibly understand what we are advocating unless you read the material.

 

[Clete]

Let me first say that I do not believe Christians should get their leading from pastors instead of from God.

Great. What was the point of pointing that out?

Let me also say that I do not believe God gives a better understanding of the Bible to religious leaders and teachers than He does to the lowly Christian who has no prominent position in the church.

Yeah, so what?

I say that as a Bible scholar myself and former pastor.

"Former pastor" explains a great deal about your stubbornness on this forum. Of all the people in the world, pastors are the most entrenched in their doctrine. They've spent too much time and money learning what they believe to ever considered altering it in any substantive way.

I agree God's plan was for Jesus to rule as King over the Jews, just not in Samuel's day.

Nicely placed in murky middle ground of both agreeing with us but without any substantive detail.

When do you think God had it in mind to give Israel a king?

Be specific.

Clete