ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

[dodge]

Obviously GOD created Adam with a nature that had the capacity to disobey Him.
That capacity has not changed.

Begs the question WHY did God give Adam one rule ? All you are doing is marginalizing Adam's disobedience to God.

Adam did not have to disobey God and since Adam folks are born with that "DO not have" to sin GONE.

You obviously do not understand the word "nature". A lion when born drinks milk but eventually eats meat as that is the nature of a lion. Men are not born and sin as babies but that sin nature is there and they will sin ! YOU ignore the difference Adam did not have to sin and everyone after ADAM will sin.

 

[Tambora]

Adam did NOT have to disobey God,

We still don't have to disobey GOD.
You don't have to commit murder.
You don't have to commit adultery.

 

[dodge]

We still don't have to disobey GOD.
You don't have to commit murder.
You don't have to commit adultery.

EVERYONE since Adam will sin ADAM did not have to. See the difference ?

Begs the question WHY did God give Adam one rule ? All you are doing is marginalizing Adam's disobedience to God.

 

[Tambora]

All you are doing is marginalizing Adam's disobedience to God.

Nope. Whether it was one command or 20 commands given, Adam still disobeyed GOD while he had the very same nature he was created with - ie. a nature that was capable of disobedience.

Adam did not have to disobey God and since Adam folks are born with that "DO not have" to sin GONE.

GOD told Cain he didn't HAVE TO sin. Gen 4:7
GOD tells man to resist the devil. James 4:7
GOD tells man to choose life or death. Deut 30:19
GOD tells man he can choose to serve GOD. Josh 24:15



Not to mention that any command is a law, and there can never be a law that brings life.
If there could have been such a law, then righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:21

 

[Tambora]

A lion when born drinks milk but eventually eats meat as that is the nature of a lion.

Right.
A creature does what his nature inclines him to do.
Adam's nature inclined him to sin. If his nature did not incline him to sin, then he would not have sinned.
But he DID sin, and he sinned with the very nature GOD created him with.

 

[dodge]

Nope. Whether it was one command or 20 commands given, Adam still disobeyed GOD while he had the very same nature he was created with - ie. a nature that was capable of disobedience.

GOD told Cain he didn't HAVE TO sin. Gen 4:7
GOD tells man to resist the devil. James 4:7
GOD tells man to choose life or death. Deut 30:19
GOD tells man he can choose to serve GOD. Josh 24:15

Not to mention that any command is a law, and there can never be a law that brings life.
If there could have been such a law, then righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:21

You are still marginalizing that Adam did not have to sin and all those after him have a lot more at work to cause them to sin than Adam had.

You are also ignoring that "before" Adam sinned he was naked and UN-ashamed and after he disobeyed God that changed, because then immediately he knew he was naked and was ashamed. There was a change which you IGNORE

 

[Tambora]

You are also ignoring that "before" Adam sinned he was naked and UN-ashamed and after he disobeyed God that changed, because then immediately he knew he was naked and was ashamed. There was a change which you IGNORE

This is outright laughable, as it was I that brought up the nakedness to begin with!!!!!!!!!

His nature, his nakedness, was the same both before and after his fall - ie. he was bare and uncovered.
His nature, his nakedness, did not change.
The only thing that changed was his knowledge of his nakedness.
The law is the knowledge of sin.


Romans 3:20 KJV
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Romans 7:7-13 KJV
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[dodge]

Right.
A creature does what his nature inclines him to do.
Adam's nature inclined him to sin. If his nature did not incline him to sin, then he would not have sinned.
But he DID sin, and he sinned with the very nature GOD created him with.

What don't you understand that Adam did "NOT" have that nature before he disobeyed God and after he disobeyed God he became a slave to his changed nature as does everyone after him ?

Adam did not know he was naked before he disobeyed God and did after he disobeyed God it changed immediately and Adam was NEVER the same as he was before he disobeyed !

 

[dodge]

Tambora;4986364]This is outright laughable, as it was I that brought up the nakedness to begin with!!!!!!!!!

What is laughable is how you "marginalize" and ignore the "context" of scripture !

 

[Shasta]

Obviously GOD created Adam with a nature that had the capacity to disobey Him.
That capacity has not changed.

Yeah. It is called free will.

 

[Shasta]

So what about people who are born again or born of the Spirit?

According to your view they should not sin. But they do, don't they?

We have to yield ourselves to the Spirit which is sometimes a struggle for us. This is because being self-centered is our primary state of consciousness from birth. Another way of saying that is that the "old (carnal) nature" is still around.

I do not think God's angels struggle over obeying Him. They always manifest their created design which is patterned after the Image of God. Apparently our rootedness in the old mind is connected to our fleshly body which has not yet been redeemed. When our full adoption as sons takes place at the Resurrection we will be freed of any tendency to sin.

If we had no tendency to sin (no old nature) and we had spiritual life at birth we would not sin.

 

[Shasta]

Shasta,

If spiritually alive were as you say, perfection of the moral kind, like Jesus displayed in "temptation" would be the result.

Look at what I highlighted in pink.

We had one rule Shasta... just one rule... uno... one... and we managed to screw it up! Just one little rule.. Now... I think the motive of the heart in the Garden is deeply overlooked.... but... that will be the next part of the OP series.

Read my 1st OP in this series by following the OP link backs. I think you think human, spiritual, moral perfection should ultimately be Christ like...

This is not the biblical case, nor will it ever be. We will never be "like God".

Only God is bulletproof to privation and deprivation.

- EE

God has many attributes we will never share with Him. Immutability is one of them. The scriptures say that in the ages to come we will always be learning about the grace and kindness He has for us (Ephesians 2:7)

I do believe spiritual and moral perfection is being Christ-like because He is the template for how a man with God inside should be like. Christ came to earth to walk as a man so that we could follow Him (1 John 2:6). While He was here He took the subordinate position of being totally dependent on the Father, which is what we should do. He did not get through any temptation by using His divine nature.

I think one thing that has not been addressed on this thread is just what a "nature" is. Everyone talks about it but no one defines it. In Greek there are two words translated "nature" ousis and fusis. The first word means "essence" or "being." Nobody can share the divine essence. That would be like becoming God. The second word means the divine character or image which we are supposed to be partakers of.

We cannot share Christ's divine nature (of which immutability is an attribute) but we can and are supposed to be progressively being shaped into the Image of His character.

 

[Tambora]

What don't you understand that Adam did "NOT" have that nature before he disobeyed God and after he disobeyed God he became a slave to his changed nature as does everyone after him ?

Adam did not know he was naked before he disobeyed God and did after he disobeyed God it changed immediately and Adam was NEVER the same as he was before he disobeyed !

His nakedness was the same, Dodge, as nakedness is simply the body being uncovered.
He was uncovered BOTH before and after his disobedience.
What CHANGED was not his nakedness (being uncovered), but his knowledge of his nakedness (being uncovered).

nakedness (being uncovered)
nakedness (being uncovered)
It's the same both before and after he ate of the fruit.
It was not the nature of his nakedness that changed - he was naked (being uncovered) both before AND after he ate the fruit.
It was the nature of his knowledge that changed, not the nature of his nakedness.

 

[dodge]

His nakedness was the same, Dodge, as nakedness is simply the body being uncovered.
He was uncovered BOTH before and after his disobedience.
What CHANGED was not his nakedness (being uncovered), but his knowledge of his nakedness (being uncovered).

nakedness (being uncovered)
nakedness (being uncovered)
It's the same both before and after he ate of the fruit.
It was not the nature of his nakedness that changed - he was naked (being uncovered) both before AND after he ate the fruit.
It was the nature of his knowledge that changed, not the nature of his nakedness.

No it is NOT the same ! Adam never even knew he was naked before his disobedience, and after he not only knew he was naked he was"ashamed" of his nakedness. Another difference between before and after is before he had no need to be clothed and after God clothed him with animal skins.

Obviously Adam and Eve were covered with something before the disobedience that was removed after he disobeyed God. You might want to study the scripture more closely. It is pretty clear that Adam and Eve were covered "with something" that was removed and lost after they both disobeyed God.

Sure there was a change in Adam's nakedness before he disobeyed God. Before Adam disobeyed there was fellowship and living in the garden with God, and after he was expelled from the daily living in the garden and close fellowship with God. God kicked him out of the garden and barred their way to the tree of life.

What you minimize God reacted to and judged as disobedience and that carried condemnation and many consequences from God as in " Adam all die ".

 

[dodge]

Right.
A creature does what his nature inclines him to do.
Adam's nature inclined him to sin. If his nature did not incline him to sin, then he would not have sinned.
But he DID sin, and he sinned with the very nature GOD created him with.

Think ! What was the point of God telling Adam "do not" if that was Adam's nature. NO it was not Adam's nature before the disobedience Adam had a choice and he chose disobedience to what God told him not to do, and not only did he acquire the nature to sin where sin now controlled him it (sin) also controls his progeny.

 

[dodge]

Tambora;4986364]This is outright laughable, as it was I that brought up the nakedness to begin with!!!!!!!!!

And you still do not understand the signifiance of the "before" and "after" of Adam's nakedness.

His nature, his nakedness, was the same both before and after his fall - ie. he was bare and uncovered.
His nature, his nakedness, did not change.
The only thing that changed was his knowledge of his nakedness.
The law is the knowledge of sin.

His nature and the fact he knew he was naked "AFTER" the fall is significant even if you do not understand that. His nature. Before he did "not" know he was naked and after he did before and after are different you simply don't see the difference.


WRONG AGAIN.

Romans 3:20 KJV
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That never existed before Adam DISOBEYED God IT IS THE RESULT OF Adam's DISOBEDIENCE.

Romans 7:7-13 KJV
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

All the above is a result of Adam's disobedience.

 

[glorydaz]

I was not "digging deep" at all. I just presented a list of scriptures and gave a simple one-sentence summary for each. You were claiming children are born with spiritual life and without any tendency to sin.

I can't read beyond this. I said nothing about not having a "tendency to sin". They are flesh and blood, exactly as Adam was. They have eyes to see when something looks good. They have flesh that craves to eat what is good. They have a realization of self, which can lead to a pride of life. They have a basic human nature, exactly as God created Adam. Just because man was created with a body, soul, and spirit does not mean they are indwelt by the Spirit of God. Adam wasn't. God walked beside him. Man's spirit does not "die" until he chooses to commit sin. Even then, it is not "dead"...communication with God is just broken.

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously GOD created Adam with a nature that had the capacity to disobey Him.
That capacity has not changed.

There ya go. Short, simple, and true. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Oh Nang.... you old flatterer.. you.... "pinching cheek,"

:rotfl:

 

[glorydaz]

So what about people who are born again or born of the Spirit?

According to your view they should not sin. But they do, don't they?

God had to remove us from under the law, else our sins would be counted against us. Good thing, too.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.​