ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - God, Trees, gods and The Fall ... (Part 4)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

A quick Recap of parts 1 to 3...

Spoiler

The first of the Series LINK

1) Satan is the originator of Sin and the TRUE "Original" Sin is Pride
2) To say any but "God" can "Be Like God" is the ultimate path of this deception.

The Second Part of the Series LINK

1) Satan is referred to in two ways in some scripture as Death and Sin.
2) Heb. 2:14, Romans 7 and 1 Co. 15:55f must be taken into account to generate accurate "Biblical" Original Sin doctrine.
3) Judgment came through the Law and was imputed through the Devil's Deceit of "Eve" (1 Tim. 2:14)
4) Adam's response is judged from the "Flesh" in "Classical" OS doctrine, when Paul and Peter reveal a far more intimate "meaning" of everything that occurred in the "Garden".

The Third Part of the Series LINK

1) The Spirit is the very Spirit that binds our flesh to soul
2) Spiritual Death is Spiritual "Disconnection or Blindness"
3) God does not break His own commands by binding Innocence to condemnation, before inception
4) We are all in utter need of God and ALL fall short of the very GLORY of God (Heb. 1:3)

I will be back to generate the fourth part of this OP, but feel free to piece together the information from 1 - 3 to get a jump start on this 4th portion.

God (Elohim) ... Trees (Life ... The knowledge of Good and Evil) ... gods (Satan and Humanity) ... The Fall (The implications of ALL scripture)

Let's put GOD FIRST ...​

YHVH ... YHWH ... JHVH ... JHWH (The tetragrammaton) ... GOD

Who walked among Adam and Eve? (Gen. 3:8)

We have scripture that Reveals this...

Exodus 40:34 Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle of meeting, because the cloud rested above it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 36 Whenever the cloud was taken up from above the tabernacle, the children of Israel would go onward in all their journeys. 37 But if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not journey till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the Lord was above the tabernacle by day, and fire was over it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.​

There are over 100 scriptures to drive the point home... but I'll simply site 3 that bring this matter home.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,​

1 Corinthians 10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.​

Exodus 33:18-23

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”​

I'll add this final scripture to cinch this matter up...

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Jesus is the very PRESENCE or GLORY of the Father! This is why Jesus says...

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

And Again...

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.”

And Again...

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.​

We know now that every Theophany (Physical Presence of God) in scripture is none other than the SON of God!

If that's not enough to make my jaw drop... The very presence of God is now married to the very flesh of ALL of us, as (Per the Gospels) He was conceived by the "Holy Spirit", "Born of a Virgin" and seen by mankind... then per Acts chapter 1, the Son ascended in corporeal Form to Heaven!

This never fails to give me chills of amazement!

Thus the Son Walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden.

And now... note that each individual discussion topic will be divided by posting to allow this OP to be digested in portions.​

TREES... Link to the TREES portion of this OP

gods... Link to the gods portion of this OP

The Fall ... This will be edited in and linked within the next 24 hours. I will add the words OP series Part 4 Complete to the Editing portion of the OP when the OP is complete.

Fair Disclosure...

I don't see your example proving what you say above. Perhaps you can explain why you say Adam's disobedience wasn't "evil". It's certainly had horrendous effects on all of creation. :think:

I will come clean... I've decided to dedicate a part of this OP series to the Fall. You have read into my very motive of wording. And indeed.. Noone can deny that the result of the events in the garden, including "Adam's" disobedience were "Evil". OP part 5 will be entitled "The Fall" and explore passages in scripture that enunciate the very "motives" of Adam and Eve.

Good "Eye" and note that you beat me to the question that leads into the next OP part. I will add to the OP to show that this matter has been discussed here to prepare for part 5.

 

[Ktoyou]

A quick Recap...



1) Satan is the originator of Sin and the TRUE "Original" Sin is Pride
2) To say any but "God" can "Be Like God" is the ultimate path of this deception.

I do agree, the first sin is pride. Wanting to be as great as God is the first sin in all cases. Even here, we it it in lessor manifestations, people cannot admit they know less than another person.

Sure, they do not want, or think they are as great as God, but they insist they are always right and know more than others.

Pride is the first sin.

 

[Tambora]

edited

nevermind

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I do agree, the first sin is pride. Wanting to be as great as God is the first sin in all cases. Even here, we it it in lessor manifestations, people cannot admit they know less than another person.

Sure, they do not want, or think they are as great as God, but they insist they are always right and know more than others.

Pride is the first sin.

I deeply appreciate your affirmation on this matter. I would scrap every bit of theology that my grey matter understands to align in Love with a fellow John 5:39 and Eph. 2:8f believer.

I will confess that I discern myself and others through the very words you have spoken. We are all susceptible to "Pride" and it is this very reason that only ONE is good. It blows my mind that the One that has ALL, put on mortality and washed our feet.

He truly deserves every drop of sincere worship that He receives.

Gratitude and Respect,

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

"The Trees..."​

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.​

The tree of Life?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”​

Do you "See" it?

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.​

This is one of those moments of scriptural Vindication... As everything in discussion of the previous 3 OP series has been supported directly by scripture and I need not make any effort to affirm what scripture is saying.

We were cast from the Garden because we "Became like God", KNOWING ... good and evil. Note... it didn't say... Did Evil... it says ... KNOW evil.

This is imperative to understand!

Also... the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" is not wicked! It is the very "Knowledge of God"! It is the actual "DOING" of "Evil" that is wicked. We can now see that the official SINNING of man isn't seen until "CAIN" kills "Able", which is a reoccurring... Scriptural theme!

Example...

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.​

We are literally discussing this matter of "Slavery" and "Freedom" and [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] , [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] , [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] and myself have been affirming this very verbiage of scripture without effort and with the full backing of all scripture as it is read from the page!

Perhaps note should start to be taken at this moment that there is more to this discussion than has been recognized by the nay sayers.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

"gods"​

Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.​

Where did we see this first?

Genesis 3:5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

Was this God's plan?

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,​

What does this mean? That there is only ONE God and all others are false.

Isaiah 14:14 exposes the first "false god" of all times and Jesus goes on to show the devil's impact on humanity and it's understanding of the ONE true GOD.

John 10:34-36

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?​

And how do false "gods" react when they are told they are false?

John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.​

This shows the enmity that is placed between those that imbibe in the lie of "Being Like God" and those that deny this lie and "Embrace or CLING to Christ... ALONE".

Need a little more proof texting?

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

and again

Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness... 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?​

Does anyone need anymore proof that wielding God's Law is a deadly game as a human being?

1 Timothy 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.​

It all binds to itself perfectly! Jesus' Words are eternal and perfect! (John 5:39) wins every time and it was even the very thrust of EDEN!

There can only be One that is the true wielder of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil".

Why? Because only ONE is truly GOOD.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

All but the "The Fall" portion of this part 4 of the OP series is edited in and it is ready for evaluation, discussion, rebuttal and scriptural searching. The Core OP of this PART 4 of the series will receive a completion note in the edited reason notation when the final portion of this "Part 4" is fully complete.

 

[Nang]

All but the "The Fall" portion of this part 4 of the OP series is edited in and it is ready for evaluation, discussion, rebuttal and scriptural searching. The Core OP of this PART 4 of the series will receive a completion note in the edited reason notation when the final portion of this "Part 4" is fully complete.

:yawn:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:yawn:

"Wake up" sleepy head... you might "miss" something.

 

[glorydaz]

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

We were cast from the Garden because we "Became like God", KNOWING ... good and evil. Note... it didn't say... Did Evil... it says ... KNOW evil.


This is imperative to understand!

But God knows all things, including the very nature of evil. Man had to find out the hard way by actually experiencing evil. We know because we suffer consequences.

Also... the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" is not wicked! It is the very "Knowledge of God"! It is the actual "DOING" of "Evil" that is wicked. We can now see that the official SINNING of man isn't seen until "CAIN" kills "Able", which is a reoccurring... Scriptural theme!

I don't see your example proving what you say above. Perhaps you can explain why you say Adam's disobedience wasn't "evil". It's certainly had horrendous effects on all of creation. :think:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

But God knows all things, including the very nature of evil. Man had to find out the hard way by actually experiencing evil. We know because we suffer consequences.

Well spoken!

Editing in... Ahem... well... ofcoarse you understand that I believe that God knows what God chooses to know... (full disclosure)... but that won't be discussed here or impact the discussion.

I don't see your example proving what you say above. Perhaps you can explain why you say Adam's disobedience wasn't "evil". It's certainly had horrendous effects on all of creation. :think:

I will come clean... I've decided to dedicate a part of this OP series to the Fall. You have read into my very motive of wording. And indeed.. Noone can deny that the result of the events in the garden, including "Adam's" disobedience were "Evil". OP part 5 will be entitled "The Fall" and explore passages in scripture that enunciate the very "motives" of Adam and Eve.

Good "Eye" and note that you beat me to the question that leads into the next OP part. I will add to the OP to show that this matter has been discussed here to prepare for part 5.

 

[glorydaz]

I do agree, the first sin is pride. Wanting to be as great as God is the first sin in all cases. Even here, we it it in lessor manifestations, people cannot admit they know less than another person.

Sure, they do not want, or think they are as great as God, but they insist they are always right and know more than others.

Pride is the first sin.

With the very first words from the serpent came a distrust of God....that pride of life. :thumb: