chrysostom

[annabenedetti]

EENS: extra ecclesiam nulla salus. No salvation outside the church.

 

[ok doser]

I like mine better

 

[Idolater]

I’ve read it from cover to cover.

Then why didn't you notice that "yes to both" is what's in the Catechism.

 

[annabenedetti]

Then why didn't you notice that "yes to both" is what's in the Catechism.

If you don't hold to EENS, just say so, but you can't say yes to both. Catholics who hold to extra ecclesiam nulla salus believe there's no salvation outside the Church. No baptism of blood or desire. That means, to them (and they believe they're holding traditional Catholic truth*), Protestants are out of luck.

*This goes way back:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." Pope Eugene IV, Ecumenical Council of Florence, from the Bull *Cantate Domino, 1441

 

[Idolater]

If you don't hold to EENS, just say so, but you can't say yes to both. Catholics who hold to extra ecclesiam nulla salus believe there's no salvation outside the Church. No baptism of blood or desire. That means, to them (and they believe they're holding traditional Catholic truth*), Protestants are out of luck.

*This goes way back:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." Pope Eugene IV, Ecumenical Council of Florence, from the Bull *Cantate Domino, 1441

Why don't you just REread the Catechism on the matter instead of lecturing me.

 

[annabenedetti]

Why don't you just REread the Catechism on the matter instead of lecturing me.

That's all you got? Okay.

 

[Idolater]

That's all you got? Okay.

lmk when you've really reread it? Okay.

 

[annabenedetti]

lmk when you've really reread it? Okay.

Um no, I won't be doing that, but you're welcome to continue your own education.

 

[ok doser]

when you guys talk to someone on the phone, do you find it nearly impossible to end a conversation, to actually say goodbye and hang up?

 

[Idolater]

Um no, I won't be doing that

Then stop lecturing people about Catholicism.

 

[annabenedetti]

when you guys talk to someone on the phone, do you find it nearly impossible to end a conversation, to actually say goodbye and hang up?

You more than anyone else should know that when I don't want to talk to someone I just don't answer.

 

[annabenedetti]

Then stop lecturing people about Catholicism.

You approached me.

If you don't want to hear what I have to say, don't post to me, it's that simple. Because I'll answer the way I see fit.

 

[Idolater]

You approached me.

You misrepresent Catholicism to a bunch of people who don't know the Church. I had every right.

If you don't want to hear what I have to say, don't post to me, it's that simple. Because I'll answer the way I see fit.

Of course. Cause you're uppity.

 

[Idolater]

when you guys talk to someone on the phone, do you find it nearly impossible to end a conversation, to actually say goodbye and hang up?

Nope.

 

[annabenedetti]

You misrepresent Catholicism to a bunch of people who don't know the Church. I had every right.
Of course. Cause you're uppity.

:rotfl:

 

[chrysostom]

protecting the child
A Top Priority
but somehow protecting the Church and the clergy got in the way. Is this clericalism? Is this just protecting homosexuality? Homosexuals are being protected. Not the child. Not the unborn baby. Not the conservative seminarian or the orthodox priest. Silence seems to protect everyone but the child. Silence is expensive. Eight billion and counting. Bankruptcy and legal maneuvering of assets is now the order of the day. Protect the Church. Protect the clergy. Not the child. What's wrong with this picture?
Home

 

[chrysostom]

safe as
A Child
in the Catholic Church. The child is now safe. Not because there are no longer any predators out there but because everyone now knows you can't trust the priest, the bishop, or even the cardinal. Not a good solution to the problem. Protecting the Church didn't work so well. Now we have bishops calling on the pope to resign. Do you know anything about this? What could divide the Church like this? Silence is not working so well. Some are talking. The problem is being exposed. Finally.
Home

 

[annabenedetti]

safe as
A Child
in the Catholic Church. The child is now safe. Not because there are no longer any predators out there but because everyone now knows you can't trust the priest, the bishop, or even the cardinal. Not a good solution to the problem. Protecting the Church didn't work so well. Now we have bishops calling on the pope to resign. Do you know anything about this? What could divide the Church like this? Silence is not working so well. Some are talking. The problem is being exposed. Finally.
Home

Let's look at who wrote the letter:

The 11-page text, written by noted anti-gay conservative Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, calls for Francis to resign over his alleged negligence. Vigano accuses Francis of covering up sexual abuse allegations against ex-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick in a letter that comes as multiple sexual abuse scandals again rock the church. The letter has sown division among leaders of Catholic Church in the United States.

One longtime Vatican watcher and scholar of the Catholic Church says the open attack on Pope Francis — coming at an especially vulnerable time for him — appears to be mostly about personal animus and the Pope’s move to make the Church more accepting of gays. The Pope’s defenders have already started to dispute details in Vigano’s letter.Vigano’s letter contains serious allegations about Francis’ response to reports of McCarrick’s abuse. But it also includes a screed against homosexuals and it can be seen as a homophobic attack against Francis, who has worked to open up the church to people who are gay or lesbian, among others who are turned away in accordance with the church’s teaching.​

I think Pope Francis has made mistakes. What happened in Chile is what comes to my mind first. But do I think he's a good man, a good Pope? I do. He needs to do more, but he's hobbled by the system and maybe he's not the revolutionary the conservatives feared because he can't - or won't - explode the system.

I think the job of being spiritual leader to over a billion people is too big of a job for anyone, to be honest. The Pope isn't responsible for what happened in the US, in Ireland, in the 40s and 50s and it's wrong to pin all that on him - but it's his job, right? Because he sits in the chair of Peter? Over a billion people, chrys. Most of whom don't even really understand their faith, do they? Or maybe even really believe it.

 

[chrysostom]

Most of whom don't even really understand their faith, do they? Or maybe even really believe it.

You can blame that on the bishops who are ignoring the teachings of the Church.
Regarding Vigano's letter.
It has been verified completely.
Francis wants to normalize homosexuality. He must not realize that it is the problem with the Church today. Many Catholics understand this and will not accept what they are trying to do.

 

[Idolater]

You can blame that on the bishops who are ignoring the teachings of the Church.

It's always justified to blame the leaders whenever an organization is blamable. Do you think that, even though the pope wears a funny hat, that the actual, "behind the scenes" but real, power structure of the Catholic Church is different from the pope as the leader, both religiously and also politically (as head of state of the Vatican)? iow do your think others have more power than Pope Francis in Catholicism?

Regarding Vigano's letter.
It has been verified completely.
Francis wants to normalize homosexuality. He must not realize that it is the problem with the Church today. Many Catholics understand this and will not accept what they are trying to do.

There's never been a waver wrt the moral teaching wrt homosexual sins against chastity (they are of basically equal gravity to all other grave sins against chastity). How to administrate the Church with either openly or openly-adjacent homosexual bishops is a categorically different subject.