ECT Christological Question - Is Jesus really fully man?

[Aner]

There seems to be some issue of thinking there's some distinction between fully being a man and being a special man. Both Einstein and an idiot are fully man, though perhaps Einstein came from a better gene pool or whatever, as some are born with greater aptitudes, we all know, just as babies can have vastly different personalities. But these things don't have any bearing that negates all came from their mother's womb, are flesh human beings. You could say Jesus Christ had better genes, as it were, being fathered by the Holy Spirit, not the sinful line of Adam, as well as Jesus Christ having the Holy Spirit without measure, but like Einstein's unique aptitudes didn't make him another sort of being not fully a flesh man, neither did the Lord Jesus' unique attributes make Him less a flesh man, even though He was God in the flesh. There's no such thing as a part man, born of a woman, that doesn't bleed if you cut him, breath air, need food and water, put it this way. And there are heresies that include denial of Christ's humanity, like denial of His deity, something cultish to watch out for. Hope that helps.

Wonder

Thanks for your input.

Are you saying that the man Christ Jesus could fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I do?

Thanks

Aner

 

[Aner]

I think you might get more discussion if you backup and explain what you are asking in more detail. For example: what do you mean when you say that men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity? And why would Jesus be limited without an incarnated deity? In your theology, is Jesus not the incarnated deity itself? What then would it mean to speak of Jesus without himself?

As you can see, I, at least, would need some information to follow your train of thought in asking these questions.

CS

Thanks for your thoughts.

In response to your question re man fully functioning without incarnated deity. Essentially I mean exactly what the statement says - you can get fully function in your life with no incarnated divine entity needed. You are a completely autonomous agent.

Does that make sense?

Aner

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Wonder

Thanks for your input.

Are you saying that the man Christ Jesus could fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I do?

Thanks

Aner

For what it was worth, you're most welcome! The Lord Jesus was born a man, and, let's say, if you took away His Person, the Word from eternity, and the Holy Spirit, why would He have been any different than any unregenerate man, who is, naturally, not God and doesn't have the Holy Spirit? He was born with and had a fully functioning body to live a flesh life in, like everybody else, born again or not. But this has nothing to do with reality, neither here nor there, since He was, and is, who He is. But a lot of people live their whole lives, most people, dead in their spirits, without God in them.

 

[jamie]

I am sort of confused. Originally you told me that Jesus fully functioned WITHOUT an incarnated deity. Now I hear that "Jesus became human" which I don't understand at all what that means. Did the divine person - a person of God - simple cease to exist - actually disappear. God did actually not only die - but simply ceased to exist? What happened to the divine person?

The divine person became flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus explained those born of the flesh are flesh (not Spirit) and those born of the Spirit are Spirit (not flesh).

The Most High is Spirit, not flesh. The idea of God in the flesh is an absurdity, it can't happen. The two are mutually exclusive.

God is not human and humans are not God. Jesus was flesh and blood until he was born of the Spirit.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. We must be changed from flesh and blood to Spirit. Jesus was the first of many.

 

[Aner]

The divine person became flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God is not human and humans are not God. Jesus was flesh and blood until he was born of the Spirit.

Hi Jamie

Thanks for the follow-up. Admittedly, I am a little more confused now. Here you are talking about a divine person - originally we were talking about a human person - the man Christ Jesus.

Can you please explain to me the relationship between the divine person Jesus - and the human person Jesus? As you noted that humans are not God and God is not human - so I assume you are saying then that there are two persons - a divine person and a human person - and both can function independently from one another. Do I understand you correctly?

Thanks

Aner

 

[jamie]

Do I understand you correctly?

No, it was the preincarnate Christ who brought Jacob's people out of Egypt. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)​

John explains that Christ was with God and was God, but he became born of woman as the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

Jesus lived and died as a human being. However, the Father healed Jesus of his fatal wound and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.

 

[Aner]

No, it was the preincarnate Christ who brought Jacob's people out of Egypt. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)​

John explains that Christ was with God and was God, but he became born of woman as the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

Jesus lived and died as a human being. However, the Father healed Jesus of his fatal wound and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.

OK - what about the man Christ Jesus then - the human person that functioned independent of the divine person (I believe you acknowledged him earlier?)? Where is he at?

Also, I am puzzled re what "as a human being" means? Is Jesus a man - like you and I - who can fully function INDEPENDENT of an incarnated deity....

 

[jamie]

OK - what about the man Christ Jesus then - the human person that functioned independent of the divine person (I believe you acknowledged him earlier?)? Where is he at?

Jesus Christ now exists in the spiritual dimension referred to as heaven.

 

[Wick Stick]

I often here the phrase "Jesus is fully man". I wonder if anyone really knows what this means - or is it simply repeated like a mantra?

I know what it means, although it's mostly repeated because it forms part of one of the early creeds. (Athanasian, I think?)

"Fully" means something different in ancient Greek and Middle English than it does in modern English. It means "all the attributes." It has to do with the hypostatic union, so if you don't know what that is, it might be hard to understand.

'Fully God, Fully Man' indicates that Jesus, as a hypostasis, has all the attributes of the Form of the Godhead, and all the attributes of the Form of Man.

Let me try to get the jargon out of the way. People are like clay, or cookie dough - they can be shaped in all sorts of different ways. Jesus was formed in such a way that He has all the attributes of the God-shaped cookie-cutter AND all the attributes of the people-shaped cookie-cutter.

Jarrod

Anybody else suddenly craving cookies?

 

[Aner]

I know what it means, although it's mostly repeated because it forms part of one of the early creeds. (Athanasian, I think?)

"Fully" means something different in ancient Greek and Middle English than it does in modern English. It means "all the attributes." It has to do with the hypostatic union, so if you don't know what that is, it might be hard to understand.

'Fully God, Fully Man' indicates that Jesus, as a hypostasis, has all the attributes of the Form of the Godhead, and all the attributes of the Form of Man.

Let me try to get the jargon out of the way. People are like clay, or cookie dough - they can be shaped in all sorts of different ways. Jesus was formed in such a way that He has all the attributes of the God-shaped cookie-cutter AND all the attributes of the people-shaped cookie-cutter.

Jarrod

Anybody else suddenly craving cookies?

Thanks Jarrod

As a man, you can fully function without an incarnated deity. Yes? If Jesus is fully man - I assume, he too can fully function independent of an incarnated deity. Does this make sense?

Thanks
Aner

 

[csuguy]

CS

Thanks for your thoughts.

In response to your question re man fully functioning without incarnated deity. Essentially I mean exactly what the statement says - you can get fully function in your life with no incarnated divine entity needed. You are a completely autonomous agent.

Does that make sense?

Aner

That partially addresses the first question in the set that I asked you, but doesn't address the latter ones - which are more important.

With regards to answering this question - I think more detail is in order to properly answer this. Do you have a particular set of functions in mind when you speak of man being fully functional? If someone loses an arm, are they no longer fully functioning? If someone has a mental disorder, are they not fully functioning? Or do you have something more of a spiritual nature in mind?

 

[Aner]

That partially addresses the first question in the set that I asked you, but doesn't address the latter ones - which are more important.

With regards to answering this question - I think more detail is in order to properly answer this. Do you have a particular set of functions in mind when you speak of man being fully functional? If someone loses an arm, are they no longer fully functioning? If someone has a mental disorder, are they not fully functioning? Or do you have something more of a spiritual nature in mind?

CS

Simply a standard human being - who does not need an incarnated deity to function. Just like you (and me) in other words. There is no reason to drill deep on this one - very simple actually. Frankly, I am surprised no one has really stood up and made a commitment to an answer...

 

[csuguy]

CS

Simply a standard human being - who does not need an incarnated deity to function. Just like you (and me) in other words. There is no reason to drill deep on this one - very simple actually. Frankly, I am surprised no one has really stood up and made a commitment to an answer...

You assert that we don't need an incarnated deity to function - but you haven't established such with any scripture or clarified what it means. What do you mean for people like you and me to function? Is this about physical capabilities, mental capabilities, spiritual capabilities, etc? If it's simple then you should be able to lay out specifically what you think it means for us to function, why you think we don't need an incarnated deity for this functionality, and why the presence of an incarnated deity might somehow influence Christ with regards to this functionality.

Right now the answer is too abstract to be able to reply meaningfully; some specifics on this matter would go along way.

Also, my other questions have not yet been addressed. For instance is Jesus not the incarnated deity himself? Or do you see a distinction between Jesus the man and God the Son? Or? I myself don't view Jesus as God Almighty - but rather his Son who was sent by God Almighty.

 

[Aner]

You assert that we don't need an incarnated deity to function - but you haven't established such with any scripture or clarified what it means. What do you mean for people like you and me to function? Is this about physical capabilities, mental capabilities, spiritual capabilities, etc? If it's simple then you should be able to lay out specifically what you think it means for us to function, why you think we don't need an incarnated deity for this functionality, and why the presence of an incarnated deity might somehow influence Christ with regards to this functionality.

Right now the answer is too abstract to be able to reply meaningfully; some specifics on this matter would go along way.

Also, my other questions have not yet been addressed. For instance is Jesus not the incarnated deity himself? Or do you see a distinction between Jesus the man and God the Son? Or? I myself don't view Jesus as God Almighty - but rather his Son who was sent by God Almighty.

With respect, you are pushing my question far beyond where it needs to go. This is not a trick question - it is really simple.

Function - as in choose to get out of bed in the morning.

Not Function - as in not being able to choose anything.

Did you need an incarnated deity to write your post. Either YES or NO. Simple as that.

As to your other questions - that is the issue that I am ultimately getting at.

 

[ZacharyB]

Zach
If I understand right, you acknowledge the man Christ Jesus COULD have fully functioned independent of an incarnated deity - not only just like you and I,
but better than you and I. Is that right?
Here is what I am challenged by - if the man Christ Jesus can fully function independent of an incarnated deity - and the divine person God the Son (assuming your believe in this entity) - could fully function as well - we would have two Jesus'.

Yes, that is right.
Yes, if the moon was green, it would be green.
Jesus was what He was ... both God and man.
But, either of your possibilities would have worked just fine.

BTW, IMO Jesus did not have to also be God.
The important point of the whole exercise was:
A human had to be produced who was without sin
... so he/she could act as our substitute, i.e. to die for our sins!
That this human was also God was just an incredible additional bonus!

It was all the more impressive, wasn't it ...
and revealed how much God loves His special creation.
Still ... God hates sin! ... and no one is allowed into heaven
who has not had his/her sins taken care of, which is a whole other topic.

Most pastors teach today a very popular false doctrine ...
God's grace is sufficient for all sins past/present/future,
which is from the very pits of hell.
Because this would mean the following are NOT NECESSARY AT ALL:
changed life, indwelling Holy Spirit, loving Jesus, sanctification, obedience, etc.
Yes, people, we have some responsibilities in God's new covenant!

 

[themuzicman]

I often here the phrase "Jesus is fully man". I wonder if anyone really knows what this means - or is it simply repeated like a mantra?

Here is my question in trying to understand what people mean by that catch-phrase -

Can Jesus fully function without an incarnated deity - just like you, I and all men are able to fully function without an incarnated deity?

Yes.

 

[Aner]

BTW, IMO Jesus did not have to also be God.
The important point of the whole exercise was:
A human had to be produced who was without sin
... so he/she could act as our substitute, i.e. to die for our sins!
That this human was also God was just an incredible additional bonus!

It was all the more impressive, wasn't it ...
and revealed how much God loves His special creation.
Still ... God hates sin! ... and no one is allowed into heaven
who has not had his/her sins taken care of, which is a whole other topic.

Interesting point you make - Jesus did not have to be God - and really that would be MORE impressive - God using a perfect, sinless man - a genuine example (God obeying God is hardly an example....)

 

[Aner]

Yes.

Muzic

Thanks for the answer.

You are stating that Jesus can fully function independent of an incarnated deity - just like you and I do. Do I have right?

So here is then is what I am challenged - IF there is a God Jesus that can function independently - and a man Jesus that can fully function (as you just acknowledged) - do we not then have two Jesus? Yet scripture only knows of one Jesus standing at the right hand of God - one mediator - one lord, etc.

I intrigued by your considertion.

 

[jamie]

Interesting point you make - Jesus did not have to be God - and really that would be MORE impressive - God using a perfect, sinless man - a genuine example (God obeying God is hardly an example....)

As a human, Jesus' atonement could have been for one man but not all men. Because Christ was the Creator long before his human birth his life was worth more than the sum total of all human lives.

Jesus was a man with a past. Before Abraham lived he existed. But he surrendered his immortality to be subject to death.

God has appointed that all humans die once.

 

[Aner]

As a human, Jesus' atonement could have been for one man but not all men. Because Christ was the Creator long before his human birth his life was worth more than the sum total of all human lives.

Jesus was a man with a past. Before Abraham lived he existed. But he surrendered his immortality to be subject to death.

Jamie

I am confused - you state - "As a human, Jesus' atonement could have been for one man but not all men."

My question is - Why? I don't see any such limitation - in fact, I see that the scriptures make it necessary for Jesus to be a man to save men - and no where do I see it necessary for him to be God to do so. This seems like a completely man-made artificial constraint. I was wondering - did someone teach you this? I believe they are in grave error.

I am also confused by this statement - "Jesus was a man with a past. Before Abraham lived he existed. But he surrendered his immortality to be subject to death."

"A man" (as you described Jesus) does not have such a past (I certainly have never heard of such)- only a God or demi-God has such a past.

The bigger issue is whether the man Christ Jesus could function independent of such a God. What do you think?

Greg