Christian Theology and Government

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Jefferson

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Saintopher said:
Where in the New Testament are believers ever encouraged to take political action?

Where did Jesus ever encourage political action for his followers, or demand changes in the system of his day?
Christians are required by God to perform different tasks depending upon the times, the country or even the city in which they live. For example, look at the different commands given the different churches in Revelation chapter 2: God told the persecuted church at Smyrna only to "be faithful to death." But to the other churches, God had many different commands such as "do the first works" (v. 5) and to overcome and keep God's works to the end" (v. 26).

I think all Christians should be against legal abortion. But I do not think that God thinks that all Christians should protest the way I do. A Christian mother has a responsibility before God to raise her children to grow up to be godly adults. If she continually gets arrested in Operation Rescue sit-ins, her children will grow up with their mother not at home because she would be behind bars instead. I think a Christian mother who acted like that would be sinning. See my point? Not every command is for every believer at all times, in every nation, in any circumstance.

The circumstances the first century church was under was very different than the circumstance you and I are under. How would Christians who were persecuted in the Soviet Gulags supposed to be involved in social issues? Such a task would not have only been impossible, it would also have been foolish. Persecuted Christians have in the past worshipped in catacombs. During those times they weren't exactly open-air street preachers. Do you think those Christians were sinning for protecting their lives like that when many Christians in America today do perform such public street evangelism? Would you tell them that it shouldn't make any difference how hard it is? Would you tell the persecuted church of Smyrna in Revelation chapter 2 that God was wrong for not giving them the same commands that He gave the other churches?

In the Soviet Union Christians were forbidden to set up benefit societies, offer material aid to their members, organize children's groups for prayer and other purposes or general biblical, lilterary or handicraft groups for the purpose of work or religious instruction or to arrange excursions and kindergartens, nor open libraries or reading rooms, nor start hospitals or provide medical aid. All these things Christians in America do. Do you think every single one of those persecuted Russian Christians should have all risked their lives and done those things anyway? No? Well guess what? The first century church, to whom Paul wrote, was born in an era of the same kind of oppression.

In a nation under repressive domination, the most immediate need of the Christian community is Christian literature, worship, prayer and keeping their meager efforts secret, not social reform that has little chance of success.

However, once the Soviet Union fell, Christians were at the forefront of many of the efforts to topple communism and bring about reform. When they had an opportunity to institute reforms, they took it. Laszlo Tokes, the Hungarian pastor who sparked the Romanian revolution, stated that Eastern Europe was not just in a political revolution but a religious renaissance. The reports that reached the western news media had references to "Jesus," the "Christian spirit," and Czechoslovakia's role as the "spiritual crossroads of Europe."

It was not enough for these Christians to be free to worship. They also wanted to participate in every facet of their nation's life. The church in Czechoslovakia did not take a hands-off approach to social issues once the Iron Curtain began to fall. The Christian leadership saw it as their duty to bring about change to the broader culture.

Do you think those Eastern European Christians were sinning? Additionally, our founding fathers sure did effect some political change and many of them were Christians. Do you think our Christian founding fathers were behaving unbiblically?

A couple more things on this issue: If Jesus set Himself up as a social reformer, what office would He have sought? He is King of kings and Lord of lords. He would have had to have taken a step down in order to obtain an earthly position, but not us. For most of us it's a step up. And in that regard, Jesus told His disciples that when the scribes and Pharisees "sit in the seat of Moses," that is, when they speak true to Moses, they should do and observe all that the scribes and Pharisees tell them to do: "Then Jesus spoke to the crowd and to His disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, and do." (Matthew 23:1-3) In other words, Jesus told his disciples that Moses (ie. the Old Testament) is authoritative. Jesus didn't tell them to honour the Old Testament except for the part about the proper societal laws (and punishments) in the book of Exodus.

Additionally, so what if Jesus was not a social reformer. Are we supposed to follow Jesus' example in everything? Jesus had no wife or children. Should we follow His example in that? Jesus never owned a house. So should we all live like nomads? By following Jesus' example, Christians have the authority to take possession of other people's property because of need. Jesus told His disciples that if anyone asked why they were taking a donkey and a colt, they were to say, "The Lord has need of them." (Matthew 21:3)

Was the Old Testament Law ever intended to be the mode and method for universal law in light of Paul's teaching that "The Law is Spiritual?" (Rom. 7) More often then not, New Testament referrences to the Old Testament Law are conveying a spiritual principle. How far do we go in applying the spiritual to the natural?
First Timothy 1:8-11 says, "But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

Sounds almost like Paul was advocating a theonomy, huh?

Could it be that Biblical Fundamentalism is fundamentally missing the point?

Just some questions that I would like to throw out.
Could it be that left wing Christians worship the false god of Public Acceptance? Just a question that I would like to throw out.
 

Lighthouse

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Before I answer, it's nice to see you back.

asilentskeptic said:
For the most part, I agree completely with you Lighthouse :)

I had 2 questions for you though. The main question is this: Since politics should not be involved in religion, should religion be involved in politics, and if so, how do we keep it from becoming the tool of corrupt men? (how do we keep things from going back to the dark ages, with the church in total control, and society and development being help back at the cost of the little people?)
If it were based on God's rule would it really be politics?

Of course, there is no gaurantee that corrupt men would not abuse thigs, or even that they would continue following the right way at all. Look at Israel, in the OT. Their kings weren't always righteous. The point is that nothing is going to be perfect, but the way I would like to see things is better than what we have now. Democracy is corrupt, and always will be. When the majority rules, wickedness rules, because the majority is wicked.

What we need is people in charge who understand what God wants, and ignore what they want. If I were in charge I would want to castrate rapists and child molesters. And cut off the hands of thieves. But that is not what God wants. So I would go with what He wants, instead of what I want.

My second question is more of an aside. (more for my personal contemplation than anything else). I was wondering what other form you would choose for trying someone if you do not believe in juries. One man? A designated committee charged with hearing evidence and dispensing punishment? I won't attack your opinions on this one at all, I just want some new forms to ponder (I seem to be pretty shallow minded when it comes to this and wouldn't mind a minor broadening of my horizons.)

Thanks!
I believe in judges, but not juries and lawyers. the reason I don't beleive in juries is the same reason I don't believe in democracy. Committees are a bad idea. Especially when no one is held responsible for the decision of the jury, as a whole. If a jusry convicts an innocent man, and that innocent man goes to the chair, when it is found he was innocent, do the courst try the juries for their wrong? No, they don't. And without juries, there would be no need for this anyway.
 

Lighthouse

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Saintopher said:
Geeezzoo! You don't have to be rude about it...but more specifically I don't really consider this a valid answer. If I gave an answer like this then someone else would say that my belief then was strictly based on opinion...so then it would just be my opinion against another. There's no substance to that answer. I'll ask again; outside of the Bible (and your opinion), how do you know that those things can be called "wicked?"
Logic. They harm other people. What else is there?

On Rape-


You are certainly free to have that opinion about the punishment of rape...however, one thing that I would want to be careful of is the exact definition and nature of the rape. Even consentual sex between a minor and an adult can be tried as statutory rape. And what even derives the age of legality? Why is it 18 and not 25 or when the person drops out of school for good? Unfortunately not everything is so clear cut.
But it needs to be clear cut. Child molestation is rape, period. However, if one is old enough to understand what sex is, and consents, then they should suffer the penalties of their decision, just like anyone else. Statutory rape is a bad law.

On Potential Abuse of Power


And how exactly does one know if God is truly in charge? Like the Skeptic pointed out, during the Middle/Dark Ages, the corrupt powers were actually doing what they thought was good and right, but they abused the power. How could anyone prove that God wasn't in charge? That is just such an impossible case to defend. Of course I guess I could buy it if God was proving his control by sending prophets whose staffs turn to snakes, or who can turn oceans into blood...but that hasn't happened in quite a long time. So I just don't buy this whole "if God were in charge" stuff because there is just no way to prove it.
The Bible. That is how you prove it. The Bible was clearly against the things that happened in the Dark Ages, and the people in charge knew that. They didn't care. But in this day and age the citizens can read the Bible for themselves. So they would know the truth. So the authorites better act according to the truth.


But it's OK for religion to be involved in politics? No matter how you try and present that one, then it is still up to the ruling majority. The players with the biggest armies win.
God si the only majority worth anything. And if He's in charge there are no politics.
 

Lighthouse

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la_mariposa said:
In regards to murder and rape and all other sins for that matter, who are we to judge others and act out the power of life or death over them. Isn't God the only one with that kind of athority over anyone's life?
If it's just a sin, that's different. Only God has the authority to judge in the matter of life or death on sin. Hwoever, if it is also a crime, God has delegated authority to the government. See Romans 13:1-4. I quoted it in another thread, in response to you.
 
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