Nang
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So you agree that Peter proclaimed the same good news that Jesus Christ proclaimed. . .
Was that good news about Jesus and His church, or do you believe it was about Christendom, at large?
Theology Club: "Christendom" Defined
- Thread starter Nang
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So you agree that Peter proclaimed the same good news that Jesus Christ proclaimed. . .
Was that good news about Jesus and His church, or do you believe it was about Christendom, at large?
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Jesus taught Peter and the eleven about the gospel of the kingdom, whereas Jesus taught Paul about the gospel of the grace of God.
When the twelve apostles were going about Israel preaching the gospel of the kingdom, the did not even know that Jesus would die.
Luk 9:1-6 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. (4) And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. (5) And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. (6) And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luk 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
It cannot be more clear than that. The twelve apostles were NOT preaching the death, burial and resurrection when they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.Luk 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The disciples were preaching the one gospel of Jesus Christ, given to them by Jesus Christ, revealing His future death and resurrection as bolded in the Luke account.
The fact that they did not have full understanding (or belief) in their message, does not alter the message.
The fact that the same gospel is preached today, but the majority of people do not believe it, does not change the gospel message.
We do not have one gospel for believers sitting in the pews, and another gospel for lost and unrepentant drunks on the streets, do we?
This idea that the gospel was made-to-fit the audience, is not biblical.
There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. All the argument against this truth is simply diversion from the truth.
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You're ignoring some facts again. It was NOT that they didn't have FULL knowledge. They had NO KNOWLEDGE.
The scripture says it THREE ways in that ONE verse.
Luk 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
That's not even close to the same thing. You are using illogical thinking.
And I said NO SUCH THING.
You are extremely confused and do not read what the scripture ACTUALLY SAYS. You also try to make the scripture FIT YOU IDEAS about it.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I didn't even mention knowledge.
The disciples were commissioned to prepare the people for Christ's ministry, with announcement that the kingdom of heaven was at hand, and being proclaimed by Jesus.
Since the kingdom promises were Messianic, this was a gospel message referring to Jesus as Christ . . . but the disciples did not have understanding of Jesus' death, because He had not yet revealed the knowledge and necessity of His death and resurrection to them.
This is a different event than Luke 9:1-6, when Jesus commissioned the twelve to announce the Kingdom of Heaven at hand. This is later, when Jesus took the twelve to Jerusalem, and gave them full knowledge of what was going to occur. Luke 18:31-34
IOW's even when they received full knowledge from Jesus about His death and resurrection, they did not have full UNDERSTANDING, for the Holy Spirit had not yet been breathed upon them.
Those facts do not change the truth that all occurred in Jerusalem exactly how Jesus told them.
You are still confusing the (gospel) message, with the messengers. The saving truths of God do not alter, according to which audience hears the truth spoken. That is a mistake. . . God alone determines who and when souls will believe His truths or not.
The Lord is Sovereign over all that is revealed to mankind, and who will be given understanding and belief in the things of God, and who will not.
The gospel (covenant) promises have been preached throughout history by Godly men, but God alone has determined who would believe or not. Gospel truths are kept hidden from all those outside of Christ (reprobates).
See Isaiah 6:9-10 and Luke 8:10 and John 12:37-41 and Acts 28:25-28, Romans 11:8-10, and II Corinthians 4:3-4.
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Understanding and knowledge are basically the same thing. You're just nitpicking and that does not help the discussion.
Now it's "a gospel"? You went berserk when some of us said that there was more than one gospel. Why do you say "a gospel", when previously you screamed "THE GOSPEL", or "THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL"?
Of course these are different events. That was my point. They were at least TWO YEARS apart. Do the twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom without any understand or knowledge that Christ would die. My point is that Christ's death for sin was NOT what they were preaching to all of Israel.
That is some confused stuff there Nang. So it's your opinion that God is a puppet master controlling all that everyone does? That would make Him the author of sin as well. You need to rethink your position.
I'm quote familiar with all of these, but my points that you ignore still stand.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
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The fact of the matter is that God has many "good news'" (gospels), which what you are saying in a round about way.
You, and quite a few others here, have a fit when we MAD folks say the same thing PLAINLY.
What EXACTLY does "part and parcel of" mean?
Is it really so unbelievable that God can have many things that are GOOD NEWS?
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Really? http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4084368&postcount=2
That was the FIRST reply to you on this thread.
Nang
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Perhaps I need to ask you to define biblical "Christianity."
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Well, first I would tell you that Jesus Christ did not teach what we now know as Christianity. Jesus taught the fulfillment of prophecy for Israel.
Rom 15:8-12 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (9) And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. (10) And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (11) And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (12) And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Note that verses 9-12 are prophecy about Jesus and the kingdom of Israel. The "people" here is referring to Israel.
Jesus gave Paul ADDITIONAL, NEW information about the plans that He had. It's really not hard to follow if you let the scripture do the teaching. But if you have some preconceived ideas that you force upon the scripture, you'll end up where you are now.
Paul constantly spoke of the REVELATION that Jesus gave to him. But you guys say that it was just the same things that he gave the twelve. Did you every stop to think about how that makes no sense? Why would Jesus chose ONE enemy to give the SAME message that He gave to the twelve apostles of the twelve tribes?
Why would Paul REPEATEDLY claim that Jesus gave things to him SINGULARLY. Like his term "MY GOSPEL". Why did he not say "OUR GOSPEL" or "THE GOSPEL"? Do you think that Paul was self-centered or arrogant (as some claim).
Even the Bible tells us that the first believers to be called Christians were not those in Jerusalem, but those MUCH later in Antioch far form Jerusalem.
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Every verse in the Word of God is there for a reason. What is the reason for this?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
He didn't?
Oh . . . how is that going for them?
:duh:
Mind-boggling question . . .
Some sort of mysticism, maybe . . . ?
Well, too bad for them, not hearing the good news directly from Paul, I guess . . .
Who is "he" who found him "who?" And who "he" who brought who "him" to Antioch?
Who is "they?" Who is the "church" at Antioch?
This is your description of "Christianity?"
I won't even ask you to tell me about what happened to your version of "Christianity" after Antioch.
(All readers: please note my responses are all sarcastic.)
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No, He taught the fulfillment of prophecy. He did not teach about His death for sin until He Paul.
And, No Nang, the suffering servant it not the full story.
It depends on what you mean by that. Their unbelief is "for a time" just like Paul says. Someday "all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).
:spam:
So you have no answer.
That would be wrong (not your first time).
Which good news?
Nobody "brought" Paul to Antioch (except perhaps the Lord Jesus Himself).
Your should probable get yourself a Bible and read it.
The church in Antioch was not established by the twelve or their disciples. It was established by Paul and his.
If you're talking about confused mainstream majority "Christianity" it's a story that Jesus came to bring the world a new religion.
If you read the Bible, it's not.
Your version of Christianity is confused by the fact that you refuse to see what's in the Bible regarding actual events.
And none too bright as well.
Excellent post
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Indeed He did, for He was the fulfillment of all O.T. prophesy. Luke 24:44-45
This is simply inaccurate. Remember Jesus comparing Himself to the prophet Jonah being three days and three nights in the large fish? Jesus predicted and revealed His death, and promised to overcome His death, by raising Himself in three days. Matthew 12:40
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Read ALL of Luke in its CONTEXT.
Luk 1:67-79 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (68) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (72) To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
This is all relate to the people of Israel. I know that you prefer to "spiritualize" this, but you do so at the destruction of the actual intent.
Read what I write to you. Don't ignore what I write to you.
Where in this scripture does Jesus tell about HIS DEATH FOR SIN?
That's a wonderful DISTRACTION you're attempting there Nang. I'm NOT falling for it.
I understand this to be in the future, as it see to be related to unfulfilled prophecy.
So you think that God's truth can only be expressed ONE WAY? Only YOUR way?
Most of those that claim allegiance to the confused teaching that permeates most denominations.
Scofield stated many truths in his commentaries, but he also showed some agreement with confused "christendom", like the idea that the NEW CREATION, the body of Christ began on the Jewish feast day.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This all relates to the true "Israel," the elect church of God. Why? Because all of this was fulfilled by the "Israel of God" the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
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God always has a faithful remnant. If the history in the Bible shows anything, it is that the religious majority is always wrong.</cut>