Catholicism and the Bible

[turbosixx]

There are pastors, and then everybody else. The pastors are responsible for administrating the Church, and teaching the authentic Christian positions in matters of faith and morals. In all other things, and under the law of the land, the faithful and the clergy are equals.

What scripture would you use to support that position?

 

[Idolater]

I don't think they know what is written. I never once saw a Bible when I was a Catholic, and I went to Catholic middle school. Seems like I should have seen one in all that time.

I don't know the last time you went to Mass, but you probably remember that there are three scriptures read each Mass, usually one from the Old Testament, usually one from Paul, and one passage from one of the Gospels. Following this pattern, in three years (a cycle), more than 90% of the New Testament is read, along with a much smaller fraction of the Old Testament, but Catholics hear the Scripture during Mass, even if they never crack a Bible themselves.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't know the last time you went to Mass, but you probably remember that there are three scriptures read each Mass, usually one from the Old Testament, usually one from Paul, and one passage from one of the Gospels. Following this pattern, in three years (a cycle), more than 90% of the New Testament is read, along with a much smaller fraction of the Old Testament, but Catholics hear the Scripture during Mass, even if they never crack a Bible themselves.

How much of it is in English? Cus, ya know, most people can't understand Latin, especially when it's "sung"...

:think:

 

[Idolater]

What scripture would you use to support that position?

I'll post some, but first, do you disagree with this position? You believe there is such a thing as a valid Christian pastor? The Quakers didn't/don't (they're very 'flat' in their hierarchy), but most believers believe pastors hold a legitimate Church office, do you, or do you find pastorates to be illegitimate offices?

 

[Idolater]

How much of it is in English? Cus, ya know, most people can't understand Latin, especially when it's "sung"...

:think:

Well, you really haven't been to Mass in a while. The Church decided that Mass should be prayed in the vernacular, back in the 1960s. Which, incidentally, is what the Latin Mass was way back when the Church changed it from Greek, which many Christians in Rome and the Roman Empire, couldn't understand and didn't speak. iow the Latin Mass was the vernacular, at the time. The Mass is prayed in the vernacular today. When the Church began, Mass was prayed in Greek, the lingua franca of that time; again, in the vernacular.

 

[turbosixx]

I'll post some, but first, do you disagree with this position? You believe there is such a thing as a valid Christian pastor? The Quakers didn't/don't (they're very 'flat' in their hierarchy), but most believers believe pastors hold a legitimate Church office, do you, or do you find pastorates to be illegitimate offices?

I somewhat agree with the position. Pastor is a scriptural church office but I believe there is a little more to the hierarchy of the church.

 

[Right Divider]

I somewhat agree with the position. Pastor is a scriptural church office but I believe there is a little more to the hierarchy of the church.

Isn't it odd that the word is used only once in the NT?

It also appears in only one book in the OT (Jeremiah).

 

[glorydaz]

My wife grew up Catholic and she knew nothing about scripture. She was blown away by gospel preaching.

Same here. When I was a Catholic, mass was in Latin. Even the singing was in Latin. If we forgot our little head doily, we had to pin a kleenex on our head. When we stayed all night for the "Stations of the Cross", we went around the room and looked at different pictures of the Lord carrying the cross, and being crucified, but we never read any scripture about it. We were just to pray silently. There was a lot of ritual without any substance. What I found odd was that going to a different church than a Catholic church was a sin.

I was just amazed with the hypocrisy....not of the people, but of the dogma and the empty rituals.

 

[steko]

If we forgot our little head doily, we had to pin a kleenex on our head.

Was that in case ya' might sneeze or maybe th' pigeons? :noid:

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know the last time you went to Mass, but you probably remember that there are three scriptures read each Mass, usually one from the Old Testament, usually one from Paul, and one passage from one of the Gospels. Following this pattern, in three years (a cycle), more than 90% of the New Testament is read, along with a much smaller fraction of the Old Testament, but Catholics hear the Scripture during Mass, even if they never crack a Bible themselves.

I went to mass regularly as a youth and early teen, and never heard a scripture read....not in mass and not in school. We had a catechism. "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church" with all the different kinds of sins we were supposed to confess. I'd repeat and repeat the prayers for the rosary, and dipped my finger in holy water and genuflected at the end of the pew. I even made up sins to confess in the confessional. I was not alone in doing so. I did like most of the nuns, though, and the priest was nice. It could have been worse. I could have been brought up as a Holy Roller. :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

Was that in case ya' might sneeze or maybe th' pigeons? :noid:

LOL I never thought of that. It was just plain embarrassing for me.

 

[steko]

It could have been worse. I could have been brought up as a Holy Roller. :idunno:

Yeah... or them snake handlers!

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah... or them snake handlers!

I lived within miles of one of those "churches" when I was in Virginia. I made a point of avoiding their neck of the woods. They have serious snakes over there.

 

[glorydaz]

There are pastors, and then everybody else. The pastors are responsible for administrating the Church, and teaching the authentic Christian positions in matters of faith and morals. In all other things, and under the law of the land, the faithful and the clergy are equals.

The church was never intended to be one man led, which is what has happened with the churches that have appointed a Pastor. Rather, there should be elders who are to teach, and set examples to other members of the body. A body ministry is a wonderful thing when working properly.

 

[steko]

I lived within miles of one of those "churches" when I was in Virginia. I made a point of avoiding their neck of the woods. They have serious snakes over there.

Well, you know... the great commission... their marchin' orders!

 

[glorydaz]

Well, you know... the great commission... their marchin' orders!

Yeah, there is that.

 

[Idolater]

I went to mass regularly as a youth and early teen, and never heard a scripture read....not in mass...

Vatican II changed the Mass, and I don't know about whether before Vatican II, Mass didn't include any readings. Perhaps it didn't. I would doubt it. But in the Roman rite since Vatican II, there are three readings every Mass, usually good long excerpts, and then the priest gives a homily; all part of the Liturgy of the Word.

and not in school. We had a catechism. "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church" with all the different kinds of sins we were supposed to confess. I'd repeat and repeat the prayers for the rosary, and dipped my finger in holy water and genuflected at the end of the pew. I even made up sins to confess in the confessional. I was not alone in doing so. I did like most of the nuns, though, and the priest was nice. It could have been worse. I could have been brought up as a Holy Roller. :idunno:

:chuckle: That's closer to how I was reared. lain: Bible thumper.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'll post some, but first,

Still waiting on the scripture here...

do you disagree with this position? You believe there is such a thing as a valid Christian pastor?

I believe there is only ONE head of the body of Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, and that pastors are there to guide one group (ie a single church) towards Christ...

Perhaps a good analogy would be Christ as the owner of the entire flock, while pastors are shepherds of small portions of the flock.

But don't quote me on that, I've never really thought of it, honestly.

The Quakers didn't/don't (they're very 'flat' in their hierarchy), but most believers believe pastors hold a legitimate Church office, do you, or do you find pastorates to be illegitimate offices?

The topic is catholicism, not Quakers.

Well, you really haven't been to Mass in a while.

Um, make that never...

The Church decided that Mass should be prayed in the vernacular, back in the 1960s. Which, incidentally, is what the Latin Mass was way back when the Church changed it from Greek, which many Christians in Rome and the Roman Empire, couldn't understand and didn't speak. iow the Latin Mass was the vernacular, at the time. The Mass is prayed in the vernacular today. When the Church began, Mass was prayed in Greek, the lingua franca of that time; again, in the vernacular.

English, please...

 

[Idolater]

Still waiting on the scripture here...

I posted some scriptures in a previous post to you.

Acts 14:23 KJV is as good a place to start as any.
...
1st Timothy 3:1 KJV, Paul mentions the office of bishop, and commences instructing Timothy about things to keep in mind when choosing men to ordain himself.
...
[Paul] was ordained for ministry by the imposition of hands. Acts 9:17 KJV
...
Paul consecrated Bishop Timothy with his own hands. 2nd Timothy 1:6 KJV

2nd Timothy 2:2 KJV shows Paul instructing Timothy about ordaining new bishops....

I believe there is only ONE head of the body of Christ, and that is Jesus Christ, and that pastors are there to guide one group (ie a single church) towards Christ...

I don't disagree with any of that. There is a relationship between authentic pastors and Christ's teachings, is all I'm saying, and so there is a relationship between the Church's pastors and Christ, the Head of the Body of Christ.

Perhaps a good analogy would be Christ as the owner of the entire flock, while pastors are shepherds of small portions of the flock.

But don't quote me on that, I've never really thought of it, honestly.

I think that's a good parallel. Besides that 'pastor' itself comes from the shepherding vocation. Hebrews 13, "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus (2Ti2:8KJV), that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant (1Co11:25KJV), 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you (Php2:13KJV) that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

The topic is catholicism, not Quakers.

Quakers don't believe in pastorates, was the reason I mentioned them.

Um, make that never...

In English-speaking parishes, Mass has been celebrated in English since the 1960s.

English, please...

Since the 1960s, Catholic Mass has been celebrated in the local language spoken in each parish. I have even seen Mass prayed in two languages (English and Spanish), by the same priest, alternating between the two languages. That priest has a real talent, let me tell you.

 

[Idolater]

The church was never intended to be one man led, which is what has happened with the churches that have appointed a Pastor. Rather, there should be elders who are to teach, and set examples to other members of the body. A body ministry is a wonderful thing when working properly.

The Church isn't led by one man now. The pope's primary duty is to ensure that all the other bishops are teaching authentic Apostolic doctrine in matters of faith and morals, he is a living test of orthodoxy, but more importantly, his office, Peter's Roman pastorate, is the institutional test for orthodoxy. This office is tasked with ensuring that all bishops all teach only Apostolic doctrine, and nothing else, as infallible and authoritative Christian teaching.

Each diocesan bishop is responsible to teach authentic Christian doctrine, and to administrate his diocese, and he does this through his assistants, some auxiliary bishops, and many parish priests. And they are all to teach the same thing.