Can Open Theists be Non-Trinitarian

[genuineoriginal]

If Jesus was only stopped from sinning by specific intervention, then that would create multiple problems, including:
* That Jesus was sinful and was only stopped from sinning by forces beyond his control, and
* that we could likewise be "without sin" in the same way (thus needing no sacrifice for sin) if God would only do the same for us.

Your reasoning leads to a conclusion that any one of us (or any man) could be perfect and without sin, provided we have all the temptations removed.

I highlighted the main problem with your argument.
Here is the post that addressed what God did for Jesus and that He will do the same for us, if we truly desire it.

That still leaves sinlessness from the exercise of Jesus' own free will, with assistance from God's divine intervention for each free will decision that was made.

Each of us has access to the ways to escape temptation that God provides to us.

1 Corinthians 10:13 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.​

As the Son of God, Jesus had more reasons to remain sinless, along with greater understanding of how to do that, and greater support from God in remaining sinless, than anyone else has ever had.

But if that was the case, why did God put trees in Eden at all?

I assume you are specifically talking about the restriction against eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Genesis 2:22 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

God tests everyone's faith.
Telling Adam to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the first test of faith given to a human.

 

[Rosenritter]

You can capitalize anything you want, but you will still be mistaken every single time you try to claim that a passover lamb was shed for the remission of sins.

A sin offering is a different sacrifice from the passover lamb.

I'm not sure why you are arguing unless you really didn't understand the meaning of the sentence.

A. Jesus was THE Passover lamb, although he was not the literal lamb of the literal sacrifice.
B. Jesus was offered for our sins.

Therefore it does correctly follow, "Jesus was The Passover Lamb that was offered for our sins." THE Passover Lamb was offered for our sins does not directly refer to Law of Moses, it directly refers to the fulfillment of the Law of Moses.

As to whether the Passover lambs were originally represented to be slain as an offering for sin, take that up with God or Moses or Jesus or someone, but the New Testament tells us that Jesus was our Passover and that his blood was shed for our sins. The Old Testament also tells us that he is a sin offering (Isaiah 53.) Perhaps Jesus is the fulfillment of EVERY Sacrifice... but that doesn't change that the blood of THE Passover Lamb was shed for our sins.

I don't know why this would cause contention.

 

[Rosenritter]

I highlighted the main problem with your argument.
Here is the post that addressed what God did for Jesus and that He will do the same for us, if we truly desire it.
I assume you are specifically talking about the restriction against eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Genesis 2:22 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

God tests everyone's faith.
Telling Adam to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the first test of faith given to a human.

You said that Jesus succeeded against temptation because he was given special help that the rest of us wouldn't have... and that this perfection in the face of all of humanity being sinful and having sinned was not because of innate character, but because of special interference of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:14-15 KJV
(14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus was kept from sinning by special interference, then he wouldn't be in all points tempted like as we are, and Hebrews 4:15 would be somewhat misleading. It says that he was tempted like we are, but without sin. If it said that he was tempted like we are, but his heart was kept from sin and made perfect through the grace of God .... or something like that, that would sound more like your original thought.

It sounds like to me that you envision that Jesus had no special attribute innate to his character, and that any random person born of man and woman would have sufficed for this prophecy to be fulfilled.... that external influence by God on any person would be guaranteed to make a random person perfect, free from sin, and willing to suffer and lay down his life for all mankind.

If that is what you believe, then the "Open Theism leads to Jesus is God" thought process stops there... but in its place I will caution that the sticking point (if truly believed) leads directly to Universalism.

For if God could "Jesus-ify" anyone and everyone through external influence (regardless of their will) then every single person who ever lived could be a Messiah to save everyone else from their sins. And if God is willing that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, there's nothing stopping that from happening.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I'm not sure why you are arguing unless you really didn't understand the meaning of the sentence.

A. Jesus was THE Passover lamb, although he was not the literal lamb of the literal sacrifice.
B. Jesus was offered for our sins.

Therefore it does correctly follow, "Jesus was The Passover Lamb that was offered for our sins." THE Passover Lamb was offered for our sins does not directly refer to Law of Moses, it directly refers to the fulfillment of the Law of Moses.

As to whether the Passover lambs were originally represented to be slain as an offering for sin, take that up with God or Moses or Jesus or someone, but the New Testament tells us that Jesus was our Passover and that his blood was shed for our sins. The Old Testament also tells us that he is a sin offering (Isaiah 53.) Perhaps Jesus is the fulfillment of EVERY Sacrifice... but that doesn't change that the blood of THE Passover Lamb was shed for our sins.

I don't know why this would cause contention.

The passover was a specific sacrifice for a specific purpose that did not have anything to do with sin.
Jesus is the fulfillment of each of the feasts of the Lord (Leviticus 23) in different ways.
If you want to speak about how Jesus fulfilled the feast of passover, please try to keep from confusing it with how Jesus will fulfill the day of atonement at His return.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You said that Jesus succeeded against temptation because he was given special help that the rest of us wouldn't have... and that this perfection in the face of all of humanity being sinful and having sinned was not because of innate character, but because of special interference of the Holy Spirit.

Not quite.
Jesus succeeded against temptation because

• God had a special mission for Jesus that He does not have for anyone else
• Jesus accepted that mission prior to being born
• That special mission gave Jesus a reason to succeed in resisting temptation that is greater than our reasons
• Jesus made greater use than we do of the special help that God has made available to all of us

Hebrews 4:14-15 KJV
(14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus was kept from sinning by special interference, then he wouldn't be in all points tempted like as we are, and Hebrews 4:15 would be somewhat misleading.

Jesus was tempted like we are, but look at the difference:

How far do we resist temptation?

Hebrews 12:4 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.​

How far did Jesus resist temptation?

Philippians 2:8 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

It sounds like to me that you envision that Jesus had no special attribute innate to his character, and that any random person born of man and woman would have sufficed for this prophecy to be fulfilled.... that external influence by God on any person would be guaranteed to make a random person perfect, free from sin, and willing to suffer and lay down his life for all mankind.

Jesus came to earth with a mission that no random person has had.

Hebrews 10:5-9 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​

The free will choice of Jesus to complete the mission came first, before any interference by God to enable the mission to succeed.
God's interference in response to human free will choices is what sets Open Theism apart from determinism.

Genesis 22:15-18 15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.​

If that is what you believe, then the "Open Theism leads to Jesus is God" thought process stops there... but in its place I will caution that the sticking point (if truly believed) leads directly to Universalism.

For if God could "Jesus-ify" anyone and everyone through external influence (regardless of their will) then every single person who ever lived could be a Messiah to save everyone else from their sins. And if God is willing that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, there's nothing stopping that from happening.

God will "Jesus-ify" many people, but not every person.

John 1:12-13 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Universalism is based upon determinism and is opposed to Open Theism.
Universalism is the false belief that God will force people to be saved despite those people rejecting Him.

Some key points to Open Theism:

• God will always interfere as needed to fulfill His prophecies
• God will sometimes interfere in response to our free will choices
• God will not interfere in our free will choices

None of these lead to Universalism