Can man posses a libertarian freewill when his creator, God, does not?

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. - 1 Kings 22: 19-23 kjv

The Lord addresses the assembled host of heaven and asks the question - "WHO shall persuade Ahab"

A particular individual spirit entity exercises their volition and suggest a method to accomplish the desired result.

It was the mind of that particular individual spirit entity, that both conceived of the lie, and the method to propagate that lie.

That is the obvious fact that the text reveals.
And it is not an insignificant detail.

For the scripture states unambiguously that - "It is impossible for God to lie"
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[JudgeRightly]

You have avoided the obvious stated content of the scripture you quote from.

Right back at you!

 

[JudgeRightly]

And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. - 1 Kings 22: 19-23 kjv

The Lord addresses the assembled host of heaven and asks the question - "WHO shall persuade Ahab"

A particular individual spirit entity exercises their volition and suggest a method to accomplish the desired result.

It was the mind of that particular individual spirit entity, that both conceived of the lie, and the method to propagate that lie.

That is the obvious fact that the text reveals.
And it is not an insignificant detail.

For the scripture states unambiguously that - "It is impossible for God to lie"
.

Good job ignoring the part where God literally commanded the spirit to do so, which I bolded and underlined in post #17.

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

Liar.


The lying spirit was following God's explicit order!

Is it wrong to lie but righteous to order someone else to do so? Does God order others to sin so that He can remain "pure"? Is there anything you say, any doctrine you believe, that isn't blasphemy?

Your pagan doctrine has blinded you to two things...

1. General statements cannot rightly be applied to every specific, which is something that most third grade children have already figured out and that has to be taught out of their brains by people like you.
2. Lying isn't always evil, which is a truth that you're not likely to ever learn if you get your doctrine from someone standing behind a pulpit rather than from actually reading the bible and taking what it says seriously.

Indeed, on the latter point, to deceive, and thereby thwart, an evil enemy is the opposite of evil. It is wisdom and righteousness and follows God's own example!

The issue remains one of attribution, not utilisation.

Who is the individual entity, who's mind conceived, both the lie, and the method to propagate it?

It was not the mind of God.
The scripture is clear - "it is impossible for God to lie".
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[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

Good job ignoring the part where God literally commanded the spirit to do so, which I bolded and underlined in post #17.

The fact that God commanded the lying spirit to proceed does not establish that it was the mind of God that conceived the lie.
That is the fact you are avoiding.
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[JudgeRightly]

The fact that God commanded the lying spirit to proceed does not establish that it was the mind of God that conceived the lie.
That is the fact you are avoiding.

You're arguing my position now.

Do you or do you not believe that God, before the foundation of the world, predestined all things (including the lying spirit coming with his lie)?

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

You're arguing my position now.

Do you or do you not believe that God, before the foundation of the world, predestined all things (including the lying spirit coming with his lie)?

You are arguing my position now.

When you acknowledge the following - "including the lying spirit coming with his lie"

You have inadvertently acknowledged that it was indeed, the individual spirit entity that conceived and propagated, this particular lie. [Not God]
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[Clete]

You have avoided the obvious stated content of the scripture you quote from.

The context is what he specifically and explicitly explained as a counter to the doctrine that your intentionally out of context proof-texting was intended to support!

Just who is it that you're trying to lie to here?

 

[Clete]

God did not command the spirit to lie.
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It is recorded twice for us so that there can be no confusion apart from that which is intentional....

1 Kings 22:22
The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’

2 Chronicles 18:21
So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’

 

[Clete]

The issue remains one of attribution, not utilisation.

Who is the individual entity, who's mind conceived, both the lie, and the method to propagate it?

It was not the mind of God.
The scripture is clear - "it is impossible for God to lie".
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Dialogue requires both parties to be responsive to what the other has said. What you are doing isn't dialogue, it's stupidity and lying. Not that it's surprising that you ignore major points and direct questions. You have no answers to offer and are unwilling to even consider that your doctrine is false. You are left with no alternative then other than to deflect and to lie. Just know that we here aren't as stupid as the people you teach this stupidity to at church.


God heard the proposal and commanded that it be done. That's what the text specifically states in any language you want to quote the passage in.

Does God command people to do evil or is your doctrine false?

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

The context is what he specifically and explicitly explained as a counter to the doctrine that your intentionally out of context proof-texting was intended to support!

Just who is it that you're trying to lie to here?

Christian debate forums are for the exchange of viewpoints among other people who may or may not be christian themselves.
It is expected that various and divergent views will be expressed by all parties participating in the exchange of ideas.
Your accusation that I'm "tying to lie here" is an example of the free exchange of ideas - Nothing more.
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[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

It is recorded twice for us so that there can be no confusion apart from that which is intentional....

1 Kings 22:22
The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’

2 Chronicles 18:21
So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’

Where the Lord instructs the lying spirit to "Go out and do so" you have an example of the utilisation of a lie, NOT its conception.

Do you understand that there is an important distinction to be acknowledged between the conception of a lie, and the utilisation of that conceived lie?
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[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

Dialogue requires both parties to be responsive to what the other has said. What you are doing isn't dialogue, it's stupidity and lying. Not that it's surprising that you ignore major points and direct questions. You have no answers to offer and are unwilling to even consider that your doctrine is false. You are left with no alternative then other than to deflect and to lie. Just know that we here aren't as stupid as the people you teach this stupidity to at church.


God heard the proposal and commanded that it be done. That's what the text specifically states in any language you want to quote the passage in.

Does God command people to do evil or is your doctrine false?

Quite often when debating a question may be raised, in the written discourse, for the purpose of prompting the recipient or reader, to contemplate the implications of some particular information or point.
Quite often these questions are not intended for a more formal or specific response; their purpose is to generate internal consideration and deliberation from the recipient or reader.

God did hear the proposal [intentional lie and its propagation] voluntarily conceived by the mind of the spirit entity [NOT God]
God did command that particular lying spirit to proceed.

God did not command the lying spirit entity to conceive a lie.
God adressed the assembled host of heaven and ask a question - nothing more.
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[JudgeRightly]

You are arguing my position now.

When you acknowledge the following - "including the lying spirit coming with his lie"

You have inadvertently acknowledged that it was indeed, the individual spirit entity that conceived and propagated, this particular lie. [Not God]

I wasn't arguing anything. I was asking you a question, one which you did not answer.

Let's try again:

Do you or do you not believe that God, before the foundation of the world, predestined all things (including the lying spirit coming with his lie)?

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

I wasn't arguing anything. I was asking you a question, one which you did not answer.

Let's try again:

Do you or do you not believe that God, before the foundation of the world, predestined all things (including the lying spirit coming with his lie)?

oh I see - teacher is persistent
The answer to your query is a resounding yes.

Did the lying spirit conceive and propagate the lie which deceived Ahab?
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[Clete]

Christian debate forums are for the exchange of viewpoints among other people who may or may not be christian themselves.
It is expected that various and divergent views will be expressed by all parties participating in the exchange of ideas.
Your accusation that I'm "tying to lie here" is an example of the free exchange of ideas - Nothing more.
.

No, you are lying. Like I said, we here at TOL aren't nearly as stupid as the people you teach this stupidity to at your church.

You were presented with precisely the opposite of what your statements claim. You aren't stupid enough for that to happen by accident. You're a liar. That's a fact.

 

[Clete]

Where the Lord instructs the lying spirit to "Go out and do so" you have an example of the utilisation of a lie, NOT its conception.

Nonsense. This spirit was in conference with God and they were discussing methods of defeating this king. A proposal was made and God agreed and commanded that it be done. Had God commanded otherwise then the lie would not have been told but He didn't command otherwise. He commanded to spirit go and do as was suggested. He did so and the result was a positive one for the sake of righteousness.

Do you understand that there is an important distinction to be acknowledged between the conception of a lie, and the utilisation of that conceived lie?
.

It is not relevant for the reason given (now multiple times) above.

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

No, you are lying. Like I said, we here at TOL aren't nearly as stupid as the people you teach this stupidity to at your church.

You were presented with precisely the opposite of what your statements claim. You aren't stupid enough for that to happen by accident. You're a liar. That's a fact.

You display the character traits of an impudent brat who throws a tantrum when his intellectual cowardice is uncovered.

It is hilarious watching the open theist insisting God must be a liar to support their aberrant view of libertarian freewill.
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[Clete]

Quite often when debating a question may be raised, in the written discourse, for the purpose of prompting the recipient or reader, to contemplate the implications of some particular information or point.
Quite often these questions are not intended for a more formal or specific response; their purpose is to generate internal consideration and deliberation from the recipient or reader.

Nonsense. You're intentionally ignoring the arguments you have no answer for.

God did hear the proposal [intentional lie and its propagation] voluntarily conceived by the mind of the spirit entity [NOT God]

Contradict yourself much?

God heard the proposal but it never touched His mind? Is that really what you want us to believe? How would He have decided to approve the plan if the concept of a lie isn't allowed to enter into the mind of God?

Is there any shape of pretzel that you aren't willing to twist yourself into in order to maintain your idiotic doctrine? Isn't it easier just to read the passage and take it to mean what it plainly states and drop the pagan Greek myth of a god that you worship?

God did command that particular lying spirit to proceed.

To proceed with what? What was He commanded to do?

Say it.

God did not command the lying spirit entity to conceive a lie.

That is not relevant.

The conception of a lie is evil but the commission of it isn't? Is that what you're saying?
Or are you saying that both the conception of and the telling of a lie is evil but ordering someone else to do it isn't?

Which is is that you're wanting us to accept?

God adressed the assembled host of heaven and ask a question - nothing more.
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Actually a lot more!

He commanded a specific course of action, based on the preceding discussion. How is that hard for you to understand? Have you not done similar things yourself a thousand times before? What is it that makes it so impossible for you to believe that God is capable of something that you do as a matter of course?

 

[TheDarkSideOfTheMoon]

Nonsense. You're intentionally ignoring the arguments you have no answer for.


Contradict yourself much?

God heard the proposal but it never touched His mind? Is that really what you want us to believe? How would He have decided to approve the plan if the concept of a lie isn't allowed to enter into the mind of God?

Is there any shape of pretzel that you aren't willing to twist yourself into in order to maintain your idiotic doctrine? Isn't it easier just to read the passage and take it to mean what it plainly states and drop the pagan Greek myth of a god that you worship?


To proceed with what? What was He commanded to do?

Say it.


That is not relevant.

The conception of a lie is evil but the commission of it isn't? Is that what you're saying?
Or are you saying that both the conception of and the telling of a lie is evil but ordering someone else to do it isn't?

Which is is that you're wanting us to accept?


Actually a lot more!

He commanded a specific course of action, based on the preceding discussion. How is that hard for you to understand? Have you not done similar things yourself a thousand times before? What is it that makes it so impossible for you to believe that God is capable of something that you do as a matter of course?

Rather than breaking down your post piecemeal I'll respond to all your questions and explain myself a bit more with the following rant.

God is sovereign over the creation and knows all things.
No entity has more depth of knowledge regards the tree of the knowledge of good and evil than he who created it and placed it in the garden.
Of course the minute detail of the complexities conceived in the lying mind of the lying spirit was known, and always known, by God.
That fact is not in dispute but acknowledged, at least in my understanding.

That is not the issue raised by the opening post.

The opening post is concerned with maintaining the belief in the words the Holy Spirit has caused to be recorded and preserved in the 66 books of the bible; the bible being the only source of objective truth.

The scripture reads "it is impossible for God to lie"

How are we to understand that clear statement in light of the fact that God has always known the connivence of the mind of that lying spirit?

That is an interesting question - but it can not be resolved by insisting it is possible for God to lie, when scripture says otherwise.
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